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David414

hydraulic line removal

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David414

Guys,

 

Restoring  a new to me 312-h for my grandson and have most of the tractor stripped down to the frame. I have no experience with hydro's and with help from @Handy Don, @953 nut, and @Damien Walker, I was able to remove both the motion control lever and the hydro lift lever, which allowed me to remove the upper hood stand sheet metal. Now I want to remove  the main hood stand but have hydraulic hoses routed thru it.  The hydraulics work fine and do not leak. Removing the hood stand will allow me to get down to the frame for the restoration. My question is, what is the best approach to remove the hoses? Remove from the hydro cylinder  mounted on the brake shaft, or from the hydraulic valve located underneath the battery tray?  The hydro valve is a very tight fit with little clearance underneath the battery tray.  Exactly how do you remove the hoses? Do you spray the fittings with DB Buster? Where do you place the wrench on the fitting for removal? What stops the fittings  from twisting the hoses during removal?  After removal, Damien suggested "plugging" removed hoses to avoid contamination. What fitting do you use? With hoses removed, I will need new O-rings, anything else?

I know this may seem hydro 101, but I have zero experience and don't want to create more problems by wrenching on the wrong fitting! 😢

Thanks, David

312_hhydro.jpg

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312_hhydro3.jpg

312_hhydro4.jpg

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WVHillbilly520H

I would take the off the lift cylinder, and cap the lines and plug the ports, you will lose some oil but its just 10w30 motor oil. The "nut" looking part in the cylinder is what you remove with an open and wrench or line wrench, the house "should" swivel as you turn the fitting nut you may need to hold the hose nut with a second wrench while removing(sreenshot). You may need to use some penetrating fluid after 30+ years. Depending on fitting type there may or may not be "o-rings" , I am not 100% sure what size the fitting are 1/4"NPT would be my guess as I have never had mine apart.

Screenshot_20210123-205159.png

Edited by WVHillbilly520H
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DET

The most important thing is to mark your lines very well.

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Horse Newbie

@WVHillbilly520H

Just so happens I discovered an oil leak somewhere near my hydraulic lift control valve.

What do I need to do, start my own topic thread ?

Edited by Horse Newbie

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953 nut

I would suggest doing the whole system over since you are this far into the tractor. I would be a shame to find a leak after it is all put together. Lowell at https://wheelhorsepartsandmore.com/product-category/hydraulics/ has all the new hoses and kits for the cylinder and control valve at reasonable prices, should be under $ 200 for everything.

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squonk
9 hours ago, DET said:

The most important thing is to mark your lines very well.

And take pics. Hose fittings are most likely o-ring boss fittings

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lynnmor

If the hoses are in good condition, keep them because you will never find fittings that fit so well.  Do replace the fitting o-rings and rebuild the cylinder if it is leaking.

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Zeek

I replaced mine with these from Surplus Center. They were exact fit for my 1276 and are cheap enough there's no point in screwing with the old ones unless you want to keep them. I haven't had a leak issue with mine and they have been on for 5 years or so.

 

1/4" X 12" JIC 4F X JIC 4F 5800 PSI HYD HOSE

ITEM NUMBER: 920-2212

PRICE: $7.50

 

1/4" X 18" JIC 4F X JIC 4F 5800 PSI HYD HOSE

ITEM NUMBER: 920-2218

PRICE: $8.60

 

1/4" X 24" JIC 4F X JIC 4F 5800 PSI HYD HOSE

ITEM NUMBER: 920-2224

PRICE: $9.70

 

1/4" X 30" JIC 4F X JIC 4F 5800 PSI HYD HOSE

ITEM NUMBER: 920-2230

PRICE: $10.95

 

1212535542_20151209_204033(Medium).jpg.5917ae6d0b9939c9460aceb514ea115b.jpg926016739_20151209_204038(Medium).jpg.21824d08b98e9c17f32992a7d337e5bc.jpg

Edited by Zeek
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pfrederi

Fittings are most like SAE ORB #6  They use Dash #906 O rings...

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peter lena

DAVID 414, don't forget when you are doing over a line swap , there is nothing stopping you from , IMPROVING THE LINE ROUTING ,TO ELIMINATE ISSUES ,  ZEEK  DID A SMOOTH JOB ABOVE ,  I would even go to a swivel hard line just to get out of a confined space , then go to a hose swivel to finish , and use mounted support as I go along . pete

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ebinmaine
3 minutes ago, peter lena said:

DAVID 414, don't forget when you are doing over a line swap , there is nothing stopping you from , IMPROVING THE LINE ROUTING ,TO ELIMINATE ISSUES ,  ZEEK  DID A SMOOTH JOB ABOVE ,  I would even go to a swivel hard line just to get out of a confined space , then go to a hose swivel to finish , and use mounted support as I go along . pete

Agreed. 

I did sort of a build my own system on the Charger hydro project. The valve is a standard generic as you might see on a log splitter. 

The folks that sold me the hoses were very helpful. I now have a couple extra swivel points which assists in installation quite a Lot. 

 

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Pollack Pete

You could always do what the last owner of my C-145 did.Take an angle grinder to the hoses and cut them off.Then do like he did and give me the tractor for free.Tractor still sits in my barn 9 years later.

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Horse Newbie
2 hours ago, 953 nut said:

I would suggest doing the whole system over since you are this far into the tractor. I would be a shame to find a leak after it is all put together. Lowell at https://wheelhorsepartsandmore.com/product-category/hydraulics/ has all the new hoses and kits for the cylinder and control valve at reasonable prices, should be under $ 200 for everything.

 

57 minutes ago, lynnmor said:

If the hoses are in good condition, keep them because you will never find fittings that fit so well.  Do replace the fitting o-rings and rebuild the cylinder if it is leaking.

@953 nut, @lynnmor

Like I said...

I am having hydraulic issues too.

Should I start my own topic ?...don't want to be rude and piggyback on David414's thread.

Since I already slightly stuck my nose in it, were you all addressing @David414, me, or both when you commented on the hoses ?

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peter lena

HORSE NEWBIE , since you are on the same topic / issue  no problem , anything that can help you out is what this site is all about , pete

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David414
6 hours ago, Zeek said:

I replaced mine with these from Surplus Center. They were exact fit for my 1276 and are cheap enough there's no point in screwing with the old ones unless you want to keep them. I haven't had a leak issue with mine and they have been on for 5 years or so.

 

1/4" X 12" JIC 4F X JIC 4F 5800 PSI HYD HOSE

ITEM NUMBER: 920-2212

PRICE: $7.50

 

1/4" X 18" JIC 4F X JIC 4F 5800 PSI HYD HOSE

ITEM NUMBER: 920-2218

PRICE: $8.60

 

1/4" X 24" JIC 4F X JIC 4F 5800 PSI HYD HOSE

ITEM NUMBER: 920-2224

PRICE: $9.70

 

1/4" X 30" JIC 4F X JIC 4F 5800 PSI HYD HOSE

ITEM NUMBER: 920-2230

PRICE: $10.95

 

1212535542_20151209_204033(Medium).jpg.5917ae6d0b9939c9460aceb514ea115b.jpg926016739_20151209_204038(Medium).jpg.21824d08b98e9c17f32992a7d337e5bc.jpg

@Zeek beautiful job. Just trying to understand hydraulics, you used JIC hose fittings which are metal to metal sealing. According to the parts diagram for my 312-h, the sealing is by o-ring boss. Are we talking two different systems? I don't think this will work with my Eaton 1100? Thanks

Edited by David414
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David414
18 hours ago, WVHillbilly520H said:

I would take the off the lift cylinder, and cap the lines and plug the ports, you will lose some oil but its just 10w30 motor oil. The "nut" looking part in the cylinder is what you remove with an open and wrench or line wrench, the house "should" swivel as you turn the fitting nut you may need to hold the hose nut with a second wrench while removing(sreenshot). You may need to use some penetrating fluid after 30+ years. Depending on fitting type there may or may not be "o-rings" , I am not 100% sure what size the fitting are 1/4"NPT would be my guess as I have never had mine apart.

Screenshot_20210123-205159.png

@WV HillbillyI believe the fittings have two different sizes. The fittings from the transmission to the valve are larger than the valve to the hydraulic cylinder? I believe the sizes are 1/2-20 and 9/16-18? Can someone confirm this? According to the 312-h parts listing, I believe on the 312-h, all fittings require an o-ring and not metal to metal contact like the JIC. 

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David414
8 hours ago, 953 nut said:

I would suggest doing the whole system over since you are this far into the tractor. I would be a shame to find a leak after it is all put together. Lowell at https://wheelhorsepartsandmore.com/product-category/hydraulics/ has all the new hoses and kits for the cylinder and control valve at reasonable prices, should be under $ 200 for everything.

@953 nut Thanks, checked with vendor's website and he does have the hose kit available, but for a 520h, my tractor is a 312-h. Have emailed  vendor to see if his hose kit will fit mine. Have you replaced these hoses before? 

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WVHillbilly520H
32 minutes ago, David414 said:

@WV HillbillyI believe the fittings have two different sizes. The fittings from the transmission to the valve are larger than the valve to the hydraulic cylinder? I believe the sizes are 1/2-20 and 9/16-18? Can someone confirm this? According to the 312-h parts listing, I believe on the 312-h, all fittings require an o-ring and not metal to metal contact like the JIC. 

Unfortunately I have no real world experiences with these as mine are are all still in realative decent condition and not torn into them.

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Horse Newbie
5 hours ago, peter lena said:

HORSE NEWBIE , since you are on the same topic / issue  no problem , anything that can help you out is what this site is all about , pete

Thanks @peter lena,

Okay, here goes..And anybody with experience with hydraulics on these Horses please jump in.  @WVHillbilly520H, @lynnmor, @953 nut 

@squonk, @ebinmaine...calling all y'all out...:D

1. If I replace the o-rings on these hoses- do they ever leak between the brass and zinc parts ? (Pic 1)

2. How do these 90 degree elbows work that go into the control valve? Do you thread them in to the position you need, then use the nut to compress the washer and o-ring? (Pic 2)

3. When I operate the lift control lever to "up"  it pulls out on the shaft in the control valve and this o-ring becomes visible, Is it supposed to operate that far? (Pic 3)

4. What is this threaded recessed allen head thing in the valve body? It had an acorn nut over it...may have had a leak there, not sure.

(Pic 3 & 4)

And finally(for now), how do you take the valve body apart to rebuild?... I am not sure anything was leaking there. It appeared that leaks were from hose fitting o-rings.Would you rebuild since being that it is all apart and for maybe smoother operation of hydraulic lift when done ?

Thanks, Tim (Horse Newbie)

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20210124_165748.jpg

20210124_165826.jpg

Edited by Horse Newbie

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ebinmaine
20 minutes ago, Horse Newbie said:

calling all y'all out...:D

I appreciate being considered with that group. I have very little experience with hydros so I'll let someone else chime in. 

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WVHillbilly520H

I don't any experiences with the WH hydraulics, but when I did the JD blade to Kioti conversion, I did do some cylinder refurbing and there was a "cushion" valve between the lines for the left/right single acting angle cylinders, the hoses/fittings were NPT so no O-rings just thread interference that I sealed with PTFE paste, but back to the cushion valve it redirects fluid from one cylinder to the other if you were to hit something solid so it wouldn't break something, anyways much like that control valve its most likely just bored to direct flow of fluid by means of the plunger/rod all out fluid one way all in fluid the other and everywhere in between excecpt "nuetral" which shouts off all flow hence the sealing ring, also most likely has a spring attached to the plunger so it returns to center/neutral now the set screw most likely sets the output line pressures as did on my cushion valve (they lower it was set the less line pressure on the cylinder and they faster it would spring out in case of a solid hit and vice versa if set higher more pressure to the cylinder less spring back and more carnage if striking something solid), anyways I would contact @wheelhorseman for more info on the WH hydraulic system and rebuild parts. Sorry I can't be of more help.

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pfrederi

1. Yes they can leak between the metal parts especially after many years.

2. Line them up then tighten the nut

3. Can't help with the valve body yours is much newer than mine. but the O ring should not come out. I would guess there was a snap rin retainer on teh other end that has failed. Good  news for you i believe you have ORB #6 fittings still readily available (us older machines use ORB #5 not around any more)

 

 

 

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953 nut
2 hours ago, David414 said:

I believe the sizes are 1/2-20 and 9/16-18?

Hose ends are not bolt thread sized nor are they NPT with the exception of the HY-2/HY-3/953/1054 older model Hein Werner pumps.

The fitting below is JIC on the left (#1) and ORB on the right (#2). Lowell has the proper fittings for the job and is a wealth of knowledge on all :wh: hydraulics and has the correct size fittings. The ORB fitting needs to be tightened enough to compress the "O" Ring without deforming it and the JIC can be positioned where you want it and then tightened.

 

6400-06-06

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pfrederi
9 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

Hose ends are not bolt thread sized nor are they NPT with the exception of the HY-2/HY-3/953/1054 older model Hein Werner pumps.

The fitting below is JIC on the left (#1) and ORB on the right (#2). Lowell has the proper fittings for the job and is a wealth of knowledge on all :wh: hydraulics and has the correct size fittings. The ORB fitting needs to be tightened enough to compress the "O" Ring without deforming it and the JIC can be positioned where you want it and then tightened.

 

6400-06-06

  FYI The #2 end in Ed's picture if it 1/2 -20 NF it is  SAE ORB #5  (and you will find then very difficult to locate yes lowell has something but the fitting are much bulkier than the originals and require some mods to the foot plate to fit. If the threads are 9/16 18 NF they are SAE ORB #6 and widely available.

Edited by pfrederi
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lynnmor

It sounds like the folks are giving you the information you need.  Now page up and review the photos posted to see what I meant about keeping the old hoses if possible,  Zeek used new hoses from Surplus Center and did a nice job, but he had an acre of room to work with, you will be very cramped for space.

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