417A Clutch Seized When Mowing, How Do I Fix?

[the jeep driver 29]

My daughter was using the Wheel Horse rider to mow, I was push mowing.  She drives over to me and says, "Dad, the blades aren't turning." I look at the mower, she's got the blades engaged (lever forward) but nothing is moving.  I disengage the blades, and re-engage... nothing.  No movement from the belt nor clutch.  Then I notice the smell, and look closer, the belt is so hot is melting on the clutch.  Or rather, the clutch is so hot it's melting the belt.  Melting occurred. 

While the clutch is disengaged, I can spin the clutch freely; and whilst it's engaged, it won't move. 

So, what did I do now?  Peter told me to lube that needle bearing, but I couldn't find a write up/how to anywhere, so I was putting it off until after the leaves were done falling in the Fall.  I haven't taken anything off yet, other than the pins that hold the pinion and such, and the little brake pad.  I see there are two snap rings, assume they come off, and then the assembly slides out as a whole? 

 

Some pictures of the clutch, can anyone tell if it's usable from them?

 

 

 

 

 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,488]

I don't think the pto is the problem. If a bearing in it failed you would not likely turn it by hand and would likely drive all the time with the engine running.

Check the front idlers for bearing failure and then check the deck. You have a pulley somewhere the belt can not turn.

 

While the clutch is disengaged, I can spin the clutch freely; and whilst it's engaged, it won't move. 

This is with the belt off the pulley correct? If so that is normal.

[Jeff-C175 7,195]

Sounds more to me like something in the mower deck is seized up.

 

When you put the mule drive pulleys back on, you put the spacers in the correct locations?  If you get it wrong, the two pulleys hit each other and that can cause problems.

 

You will want to clean the burnt rubber out of the pulley grooves on the PTO for sure.

 

Try spinning the drive pulley on the deck by hand.  Also the mule drive pulleys.

 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Jeff-C175

[lynnmor 6,762]

Do check the deck pulleys as stated above.

It does look like the snap ring that pushes the bearing in the PTO is missing and the pin is going against the end.

[8ntruck 6,358]

  a missing outer snap ring on the stub shaft that the clutch hoop pushes on will prevent the clutch from engaging enough to drive the deck.  Is the belt melted in one spot, or in a long area of the sides.  If it is only melted in one spot, it is likely that the PTO clutch is slipping.

[squonk 38,846]

I agree remove the belt and find out what's stuck. That PTO got hot. Probably burned up the grease inside. I would inspect and regrease the roller bearing if the bearing is ok. The outer bearing I would replace. Metal looks blue (got hot). Outer bearing # is Napa PP204RR6

[953 nut 51,536]

Remove the old drive belt for the deck, it is trashed anyway. Turn each of the pullies on the mule drive one at a time, they should spin freely. Put on some gloves and turn one of the blades on the deck and see if the others turn smoothly with it, if not then remove the deck belt and turn each blade independently, they should all rotate freely when not connected to the others. While the belt is off the deck check the idler pulley that applies tension for that belt. They don't last forever.

[peter lena 8,037]

 @the jeep driver  looks like a long overdue combined service issue , every bearing phase should be rotating  easily / freely . that outer pto cone bearing is cooked , probably the inside needle bearing as well. removing the pto brake mount / pad , and swinging the outer arm to the side , lets you easily pull off the pto cone . would replace both bearings , personally clean out and regrease the needle bearing , you will have to go over every related bearing on that set up . a spot fix won't  will not do it . obviousely you have  combined , bearing failures , if your deck / blades , is packed , dull worn blades , combined with , overheated , lubrication failure in your mule bearings . every phase of that rotation , should easily / smoothly hand off to the next phase, thats why I  emphasize , detailing and upgraded lubrication to every rotating point . pull off the cone, drop the deck , lets have a look . probably multiple failures . let us know , your rebuild has to be thorough , for every action , thats the next phase, pete   

[kpinnc 10,686]

Don't forget the idler pulley on the deck. Like the two pulleys on the mule drive, it's non-servicable and a typical failure point.

[peter lena 8,037]

@kpinnc when replacing any bearing , the first thing I  look for is wide rubber grease shields , why? so you can easily remove them with a flat pocket screwdriver , all of my mule drive bearings have been wiped clean and carb cleaner flushed , then re grease  with a 560 deg rated , anti sling ,polyurea grease , I  do this on new " non -serviceable bearings " , that changes them to  bombproof , instead of noisy / whining junk  . also do this on those idler pulley bearings , when replacing pulley , get same type / size , but with a larger bearing , wide side shields . bearing  I/D will be  1/2 "  or 5/8 " , then get a bronze push in bushing , with a 3/8 I/ D hole  to match the 1/2 "  or 5/8" larger bearing , thats makes a direct fit replacement  and an upgrade , to stop failure . already did all the trials on this upgrade , used regularly on all my horses . no whining noise , no failures , solid very smooth , why not make a failure go away ?  pete          

[kpinnc 10,686]

1 hour ago, peter lena said:

 when replacing any bearing , the first thing I  look for is wide rubber grease shields , why? so you can easily remove them with a flat pocket screwdriver , all of my mule drive bearings have been wiped clean and carb cleaner flushed , then re grease  with a 560 deg rated , anti sling ,polyurea grease , I  do this on new " non -serviceable bearings " , that changes them to  bombproof , instead of noisy / whining junk  . also do this on those idler pulley bearings , when replacing pulley , get same type / size , but with a larger bearing , wide side shields . bearing  I/D will be  1/2 "  or 5/8 " , then get a bronze push in bushing , with a 3/8 I/ D hole  to match the 1/2 "  or 5/8" larger bearing , thats makes a direct fit replacement  and an upgrade , to stop failure . already did all the trials on this upgrade , used regularly on all my horses . no whining noise , no failures , solid very smooth , why not make a failure go away ?

 

I agree 100 percent Pete. I have done the same on many occasions. I just meant by "non-servicable" that they don't have a conventional way to be greased regularly like spindles with a grease gun, and often are overlooked as a result.

 

Personally, I try to hold onto every "old" WH cast pulley I can find with the snap ring retainer. Those make life much easier because of exactly what you're talking about: those seals are even more easily accessable and you can keep a spare set ready to go whenever needed. 

[peter lena 8,037]

@kpinnc  agree with those old cast pulleys , snap ring ,simplicity . also, when going on a  pulley search , local T/S  stores usually has a  exact size / type match up , with those larger bearing s  already in place , just a bronze 3/8 ID  is needed  for a  matching fit. there are few areas that I  have not upgraded , to eliminate a  chronic  issue . tractors look the same , yet the problem is gone . thanks for the shout , weather is saposed to Kool off , be at the lake at dark thirty , hook in mouth , pete

[ineedanother 1,365]

On 8/31/2022 at 10:25 AM, peter lena said:

be at the lake at dark thirty , hook in mouth , pete

Good luck with that Pete. I'll be at the office wishing I was there too. 

[Jeff-C175 7,195]

On 8/29/2022 at 9:12 PM, the jeep driver said:

clutch

 

C'mon back and tell us what you found!

 

[the jeep driver 29]

7 hours ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

C'mon back and tell us what you found!

 

Nothing conclusive as of yet... All I've time time to do is mess with the deck, everything seems to more freely either by pulling the belt or spinning the pulleys once the belt is off.  I plan on taking the clutch apart tomorrow.  More pictures and questions will be forthcoming!  Thank you! 

[John2189 405]

7 hours ago, the jeep driver said:

Nothing conclusive as of yet... All I've time time to do is mess with the deck, everything seems to more freely either by pulling the belt or spinning the pulleys once the belt is off.  I plan on taking the clutch apart tomorrow.  More pictures and questions will be forthcoming!  Thank you! 

With the belt on and engine running, was the pto turning?    With engine off, If the clutch spins while disengaged , and doesn’t spin engaged, It would almost have to be a locked up spindle or idler. Or the pto clutch is slipping and needs adjustment. Does the pto handle have resistance to it when you engage it?

 

I see you are in NE Ohio, im in Minerva 

[the jeep driver 29]

On 8/29/2022 at 10:11 PM, gwest_ca said:

Check the front idlers for bearing failure and then check the deck. You have a pulley somewhere the belt can not turn.

 

On 8/29/2022 at 10:27 PM, Jeff-C175 said:

Try spinning the drive pulley on the deck by hand.  Also the mule drive pulleys.

 

On 8/29/2022 at 10:47 PM, lynnmor said:

...check the deck pulleys ...

 

On 8/30/2022 at 7:55 AM, 953 nut said:

... pullies on the mule drive one at a time, they should spin freely. ...turn one of the blades on the deck...turn each blade independently... idler pulley ...

 

On 8/30/2022 at 9:50 PM, kpinnc said:

... idler pulley on the deck. ...

 

On 8/30/2022 at 8:18 AM, peter lena said:

 @the jeep driver every bearing phase should be rotating  easily / freely . 

 

I've checked every pulley on the deck and mule, with the deck belt both on and off, everything moves as it should, including the blades.  I can't check anything that would require the drive belt since I don't have a new one yet.  Edit to mention that none of the pulleys make any whine or chirp when I move them.  They also don't feel loose.

Edited September 3, 2022 by the jeep driver

[the jeep driver 29]

On 8/29/2022 at 10:27 PM, Jeff-C175 said:

When you put the mule drive pulleys back on, you put the spacers in the correct locations? 

 

Yes.

[the jeep driver 29]

On 8/29/2022 at 10:47 PM, lynnmor said:

It does look like the snap ring that pushes the bearing in the PTO is missing and the pin is going against the end.

 

On 8/29/2022 at 11:30 PM, 8ntruck said:

  a missing outer snap ring on the stub shaft that the clutch hoop pushes on will prevent the clutch from engaging enough to drive the deck. 

What snap ring is missing?  Where does it go?  I have two that I can see...  I think they would be #34 and #35...?  I haven't taken either one off yet... It looks like there's another #34 behind the bearing that I won't be able to see with the bearing in place.  

 

[the jeep driver 29]

On 8/29/2022 at 11:30 PM, 8ntruck said:

 Is the belt melted in one spot, or in a long area of the sides.  If it is only melted in one spot, it is likely that the PTO clutch is slipping.

Just the one spot melted... when I was watching the nothing on the PTO was moving with the lever engaged. I didn't get to watch for long though before the belt failed and I shut the tractor off.

[Jeff-C175 7,195]

5 minutes ago, the jeep driver said:

What snap ring is missing?

 

I believe he may have been referring to the OUTER #34 .  If that one pops off, the stub axle will push IN, and #29 will grind on the end of the PTO bell.  I've got one bell that this happened to and it wore it down so far there's no slot left for #35.  It still works though it's just that when you take it apart you have to be careful that the bearing doesn't fall out.  It SHOULD be a tight fit, but on this particular one it is not... 

 

 

[Jeff-C175 7,195]

4 minutes ago, the jeep driver said:

when I was watching the nothing on the PTO was moving with the lever engaged

 

Do you mean that the PTO bell was not turning?  Can't be... cuz then the belt would not have melted. 

 

Look for a worn clutch facing on #43

 

 

[the jeep driver 29]

On 8/30/2022 at 7:47 AM, squonk said:

That PTO got hot. Probably burned up the grease inside. I would inspect and regrease the roller bearing if the bearing is ok. The outer bearing I would replace. Metal looks blue (got hot). Outer bearing # is Napa PP204RR6

Thanks for that part number!  The roller bearing looks good, but now that I've got the PTO off, I'm taking it over to a highly mechanically inclined friend for a second opinion.  He'll have all the correct grease if that's all it needs.  I'll just relace the outer bearing no matter how it looks while I have it apart.  

[8ntruck 6,358]

Check the surface on the PTO pulley that contacts the clutch.  It could warp if it got hot enough.

[the jeep driver 29]

9 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

Do you mean that the PTO bell was not turning?  Can't be... cuz then the belt would not have melted. 

 

 

By "PTO bell" do you mean part #37?  There wasn't anything on the PTO moving... The belt was just sitting against the clutch plate sizzling.  

 

9 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

Look for a worn clutch facing on #43

  

2 minutes ago, 8ntruck said:

Check the surface on the PTO pulley that contacts the clutch.  It could warp if it got hot enough.

 

 

This is mine, I didn't take it off.  How do you think it looks?  Or is it too difficult to tell if it's worn out from a picture? 

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by the jeep driver