417A Clutch Seized When Mowing, How Do I Fix?

[John2189 407]

I still think the clutch was slipping. Grease the bearings and put back together and adjust the clutch 

[the jeep driver 29]

1 minute ago, John2189 said:

adjust the clutch 

Let's pretend I'm not sure what that means....  ... I know there's adjustment with the trunnion and "brake pad thing," part #23, which is new this year.  And I had the pad set to the spec I found in the manual.  Is there more adjustment needed? 

[8ntruck 6,399]

Lay a straight edge across both the clutch pad on the engine and the engaging face on the PTO bell in several places each.  If you see a gap between the straight edge and the clutching surfaces, the part is warped.   I'd worry if you saw something like a .020" or .030" gap or more.

 

If that is the case, the clutch will still work, BUT it will have a reduced load carrying capacity.  The fix would be to sand the surfaces flat.  A possible method would be to rub the PTO bell on a sheet of 220 wet & dry paper on a piece of window glass.  Window glass makes pretty good a poor man's surface plate.  The same method could be used to flatten the clutch lining, though if it is an original clutch plate, it might contain asbestos - asbestos dust is bad.

[John2189 407]

44 minutes ago, the jeep driver said:

Let's pretend I'm not sure what that means....  ... I know there's adjustment with the trunnion and "brake pad thing," part #23, which is new this year.  And I had the pad set to the spec I found in the manual.  Is there more adjustment needed? 

This threaded rod. My clutch plate is almost worn out and I don’t have any more adjustment.  This pushes the pto bell and applies pressure to the clutch plate. When you engage the pto, the handle should have a little snap to it as if the triangle plate is going past center. 
 

i think the po drilled a second hole to gain more adjustment 

[the jeep driver 29]

I don't how I missed this post... 

  

15 hours ago, John2189 said:

With the belt on and engine running, was the pto turning?  

No, it was not.
 

15 hours ago, John2189 said:

 With engine off, If the clutch spins while disengaged ,

Yes.

  

15 hours ago, John2189 said:

 and doesn’t spin engaged,

Correct, doesn't spin.

  

15 hours ago, John2189 said:

 Does the pto handle have resistance to it when you engage it?

Yes, it does... so is it possible I've overtightened the trunnion?  This wouldn't make sense, as we've been mowing with it as is since May, and even before that, I didn't change the trunnion position when I did the repair stuff in May.

  

15 hours ago, John2189 said:

I see you are in NE Ohio, im in Minerva 

Uh... no... I am in NW Ohio... I can't get my location correct, yet somehow, I think I'm going to repair my own tractor... I will edit my profile in a sec...

I'd like to be in NE Ohio; NW Ohio is as flat as it gets, I have to travel several hours just to find a place to off-road the Jeep.
 

[John2189 407]

I don’t think over tightening would stop it from turning.  Is it possible that the key on the crank shaft sheared? And spinning on the crank?   See if it’ll come off the crank.

[the jeep driver 29]

1 hour ago, 8ntruck said:

Lay a straight edge across both the clutch pad on the engine and the engaging face on the PTO bell in several places each.  If you see a gap between the straight edge and the clutching surfaces, the part is warped.   I'd worry if you saw something like a .020" or .030" gap or more.

Just to make sure I understood your instructions... 

The Clutch Plate & Facing is "uneven," off .017".
 

 

 

 

The Clutch Housing is worn evenly, higher around the outer edge, off .005 at the inner. 

[ineedanother 1,365]

14 minutes ago, John2189 said:

I don’t think over tightening would stop it from turning.  Is it possible that the key on the crank shaft sheared? And spinning on the crank?   See if it’ll come off the crank.

That's something that I hadn't considered but would definitely have a look at...

[Rick3478 375]

Here's what I think based on the photos and parts diagram (thanks):

 

Remove 21, 22, 23, 24 and set them aside.  You can put them back after you get the clutch to work.

 

We can see 28 and 29 are badly worn, and 28 has been grinding against 37 for quite awhile, so one
or more of the holes that we can't see in 31 or 33 that 30 and 28 go through may also be worn out.

 

You at least need to replace 28 and 29, probably use new 30 while you're at it.  Depending on
how badly wallowed the holes are, you may need to replace 31 and/or 33.  Those parts have been
running without lube for a long time.

 

Bearings are probably okay, seals not so likely, so you may need 36 and 39.
Check clutch face 43 while it's apart, replace if warped or scorched.

 

As for the extra hole in the triangle plate, that was probably the wrong answer to the wear
that was happening elsewhere.

 

Clean everything up, replace worn-out parts, fresh grease in the bearings, and some kind of oil
on 28 thru 33.  I like foamy sticky motorcycle chain lube.

 

GL

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Rick3478
fix typo 38 sb 39

[the jeep driver 29]

40 minutes ago, John2189 said:

I don’t think over tightening would stop it from turning.  Is it possible that the key on the crank shaft sheared? And spinning on the crank?   See if it’ll come off the crank.

OK, I can't find my parts diagram for this, so posting a picture... guessing as to what is what...

 

 

None of the parts there will move.  Am I looking for the correct things? 

[Jeff-C175 7,195]

4 hours ago, the jeep driver said:

By "PTO bell" do you mean part #37?  There wasn't anything on the PTO moving... The belt was just sitting against the clutch plate sizzling.  

 

Yes.  Maybe I don't understand which belt was sizzling then.  It looked like from your original pics that it was the MOWER drive belt, the one that loops around the mule drive.  If the PTO was not turning, then how could that belt have gotten fried?

 

I'm puzzled... need better and full description.

 

4 hours ago, the jeep driver said:

How do you think it looks? 

 

That actually looks fine to me from what I can see in the pic.  How THICK is the friction material?

 

And the face of the PTO bell that contacts that clutch plate, how does that look?  Any 'blue' spots on it from where it may have overheated?

 

 

 

[Jeff-C175 7,195]

1 hour ago, the jeep driver said:

OK, I can't find my parts diagram for this, so posting a picture... guessing as to what is what...

 

 

None of the parts there will move.  Am I looking for the correct things? 

 

The key is only on the drive pulley that is BEHIND that clutch disc.  The KEY slot goes all the way up to the end, but the actual KEY is short, and way back by the engine.  If that key sheared, the tractor may not move,  it COULD move somewhat, but there are two allen head set screws on the pulley behind that clutch plate.  

 

It appears that you have PLENTY of friction material left on that clutch from what I can see.

 

It's possible that it may need a pto clutch adjustment, but that STILL DOES NOT EXPLAIN how the belt could be burnt up if the PTO was not turning.

 

 

[8ntruck 6,399]

The measurements you took on the clutch and PTO bell face look about normal.  I would not hesitate to use these parts as is.

 

If the PTO clutch was slipping enough that the bell was not turning while engaged, it would certainly get hot enough to cook a short section of the belt.

 

Components 33 through 36 need to be installed in the PTO bell (#37) so that they have no axial slop.  The hoop  (#31) needs to have minimal slop where it pivots in #46 and #17.  Part #17 needs to have minimal slop where it pivots in #25 and with the trunion on the rod from the PTO lever.  Accumulated slop in these pivot points will eat up a surprising amount of adjustment.

 

The Clevis pin #28 should definitely not be rubbing the end of the PTO bell.  Get that figured out, and you should be well on your way to a solving your problem.

 

Good luck. 

Edited September 3, 2022 by 8ntruck

[Jeff-C175 7,195]

27 minutes ago, 8ntruck said:

it would certainly get hot enough to cook a short section of the belt.

 

I see what you're saying.  So the clutch is probably adjusted way too loose and slipping.  All that slipping heating the PTO bell and burning the belt.

 

 

[wallfish 15,940]

Without a doubt that thing slipping can get it hot enough to cook a belt.

Another issue when that assembly gets that hot is the clutch plate. It can disintegrate from melting the adhesive that holds it on . My 2 stage blower was slipping in wet heavy snow on a new to me 520. That thing grenaded the clutch plate from overheating so be careful about the kids using it if that same clutch plate stays.  

[Rick3478 375]

How much you want for it?

[wallfish 15,940]

6 hours ago, Rick3478 said:

How much you want for it?

?

Don't understand what you're asking about or if this is even directed at me

[Rick3478 375]

1 hour ago, wallfish said:

?

Don't understand what you're asking about or if this is even directed at me

Directed at OP in this thread.

[Jeff-C175 7,195]

1 hour ago, Rick3478 said:

Directed at OP in this thread.

 

Why?  This isn't the 'for sale' forum!  

[Rick3478 375]

On 9/4/2022 at 5:10 PM, Jeff-C175 said:

 

Why?  This isn't the 'for sale' forum!  

Just an afterthought and probably doesn't matter.  Hopefully he's just waiting for Toro dealer to open so he can see if parts are available.

[953 nut 51,895]

On 9/3/2022 at 4:02 PM, John2189 said:

I don’t think over tightening would stop it from turning.  Is it possible that the key on the crank shaft sheared? And spinning on the crank?   See if it’ll come off the crank.

If the key on the crankshaft was the problem the tractor wouldn't drive at all, the hey is on the drive pully to the transaxle and the PTO bolts to that pulley.

[John2189 407]

1 hour ago, 953 nut said:

If the key on the crankshaft was the problem the tractor wouldn't drive at all, the hey is on the drive pully to the transaxle and the PTO bolts to that pulley.

Ok didn’t think of that 

[the jeep driver 29]

Bought one of the "blue belts" from TSC I read about on Wheel Horse Forum.  Used a random orbital sander to get all the melted belt off.  Replaced the outer bearing, repacked the inner.  I'll put it all back together today and see what happens... 

[Skipper 1,788]

You could scuff up the surface just a little to get a better grip. Gentle on the clutch material, and just enough to make the "shiny" part of the pressure plate go away. Make it even

 

When you adjust the clutch "arm", tighten it enough that you have a good firm feel of it being engaged, but not way overdo it. If it slips a little under load, then tighten a little. 

 

Make sure you can turn the deck and clutch cone by hand, moving the blades. ENGINE OFF! of cause. If that spins and pulls the clutch cone along, the deck must run when clutch is engaged correctly.

 

Good luck.

[wallfish 15,940]

Having that surface and the clutch material flat will create the most contact between the two and they will lock together better. I use a belt sander on the flat metal surface but placing a large piece of sandpaper on a flat surface will work too. Same for the clutch material. I use a sanding block with sand paper and flatten the clutch material with the engine running but I do lots of stuff I'm comfortable with that probably isn't very safe! Still have all my fingers but that doesn't mean I will tomorrow.