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WVHillbilly520H

Cub Cadets 1200

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WVHillbilly520H

@PeacemakerJack @WHX24 @Achto @953 nut @ebinmaine and anybody else who wants to take a stab at this as I am sure a Kohler is a Kohler no matter what color/brand tractor it sets in ... Back story I bought a group of IHCC just to get the 1 I wanted (126 3rd lowest production) then my son wanted a 1200 like my dad's so I let him have the best 1 of 2 to tinker and learn on, found the original engine had a broken rod so I found him another "running" at idle (I seen and heard in person before buying) K301 out of another CC and let him pull the blown engine and install the new 1 on his own, after installation he couldn't get it to run past idle missing and spattering plus carb leaking, smoking a little bit, then I bring back home and start working on it fixing other mechanical issues then jumped into the engine issues. As follows, wrong coil and a weak spark so all new components set points ran but would NOT really rev up smoked but not to terribly when reviving up but popped and sputtered, off came the head one small spot on the gasket near the exhaust valve looked to be leaking and upon further inspection the exhaust valve was pitted bad (burnt?) so I removed and tried to hand lap didn't work so had the blown engine on hand and stole the good exhaust valve and lapped it and the intake in decently, new head gasket after after cleaning and "planing" the head's gasket surface put it all back together, got it running and warmed up, retorque bolts button that up move onto the carb issues after 2 brand new "China" replicas and cleaned the original other than leaking fuel bowls no matter how I adjust the mixture screws it will idle damn near "perfectly" but getting it rev to WOT without missing popping and sputtering was damn near impossible, so here I am I got it to rev up to WOT without to much much fanfare but now it it will surge (governor moving back and forth ever so slightly unlike idle no movement at all) then will calm down then sputtering like starving for fuel (all 3 carbs, new tank petcock and fuel line , it is gravity fed) sitting still or driving around. After its warm it starts on the first bump of the key idles like new and revs up to WOT but misses/sputters/ surged there... So what else should I do, more/less point gap (now .020", can't pull the blower housing without removing engine "that ain't happening again such a PITA on these wide frame CC to find and paint the timing marks that I tried looking for through a 3/4" peep hole for an hour today)? I set checked and rechecked valve lash 3 times .009" In and .018" Ex... A couple videos to help as well. Sorry for the long post but I'm trying to give as much info the first time to help solve this debacle. And as most of you know I can build and tune a tight SBC this should be a piece of cake.

Edited by WVHillbilly520H

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953 nut

Ignition timing may be off a little, I would play around with the points a little first, try .018 and see if it makes a difference. Looks like a PITA to use a timing light even if the flywheel was painted and the marks very obvious. When the crankshaft keyway is up the piston is at TDC. Get it close to TDC and take a piece of chalk or a lumber crayon to color the flywheel and the "SP" mark may show up though they weren't stamped very deep.

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WHX??

Any crud in the tank that might be getting by the fuel filter? Not a big fan of the "pancake" fuel filters but that could just be me. and doen't sound like a carb issue.  Yes try 18 on the points if or go 22 if that seems to make it worse. Guessing you ready tryed different points/condensor/plug? I can't do the vids on crappy internet at home. 

Edited by WHX24

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WVHillbilly520H
22 minutes ago, WHX24 said:

Any crud in the tank that might be getting by the fuel filter? Not a big fan of the "pancake" fuel filters but that could just be me. and doen't sound like a carb issue.  Yes try 18 on the points if or go 22 if that seems to make it worse. Guessing you ready tryed different points/condensor/plug? I can't do the vids on crappy internet at home. 

Tank clean, fresh gas with MMO and Berryman's B12 (Seafoam) and I tried straight fuel line w/o filter this last round.  These CC use a rubber mounted shaker plate ... ground?  And yes the original coil/condenser/points another set of points and this brand new kit and new Autolie spark plug... Maybe try an H10C ? And to think most on here fussy about ONAN.

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diesel cowboy

Sounds kind of like a fuel issue too along with maybe the timing being slightly off.  That fuel system setup doesn't really like an inline filter of any kind in there other than the screen on the shutoff.  I see a jack under the front in the first vid.  How high is the tractor picked up and how much gas is in the tank?  As for the ignition parts what I've run into is they need genuine Kohler points and condensor a decent name brand internally resisted coil and a Champion H10 spark plug.  The timing marks are a pain on those, I've always taken a small wooden dowel or tree branch and stuck it in there while it's running and 9 times out of 10 I can see the marks after

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JoeM

A cheap spark indicator may tell the tail. Point spark is erratic, another bad condenser? I see the arc jumping off the contact areas. Put the old coil on and try?  .018 gap seems to be were I alway ended up

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WVHillbilly520H
8 hours ago, diesel cowboy said:

Sounds kind of like a fuel issue too along with maybe the timing being slightly off.  That fuel system setup doesn't really like an inline filter of any kind in there other than the screen on the shutoff.  I see a jack under the front in the first vid.  How high is the tractor picked up and how much gas is in the tank?  As for the ignition parts what I've run into is they need genuine Kohler points and condensor a decent name brand internally resisted coil and a Champion H10 spark plug.  The timing marks are a pain on those, I've always taken a small wooden dowel or tree branch and stuck it in there while it's running and 9 times out of 10 I can see the marks after

The jack was just there not under the tractor, the original and new petcocks both did not have the brass screen/filter so used the pancakes filter as well as a straight unfiltered hose in the last video (3 carbs and no change with the adjustment screws), 3 sets of points 1 Kohler 2 condensers the "original" coil wasn't even correct tower for plug wire, the spark is definitely blue now but like mentioned erratic there, nobody had an H10C plug in stock so I went with an Autolite #?, seems the consensus so far is mainly point gap/timing issue. I will try your wood/twig idea for the timing marks as I can plainly see them on the blown engine flywheel.

 

8 hours ago, JoeM said:

A cheap spark indicator may tell the tail. Point spark is erratic, another bad condenser? I see the arc jumping off the contact areas. Put the old coil on and try?  .018 gap seems to be were I alway ended up

Old coil wrong 1 to begin with... I will regap and double check my condenser/wiring also this was a graveyard tractor and trying to resurrect it for my 16yo.

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JoeM

Jeff sure is strange but seems electrical. Input voltage okay?

It runs a long fine, (normal point arc) then this.....

1286762224_Capturekohlerpointfiiring1.JPG.3033e353bc1531a6e8c9227f87d65f9d.JPG712591642_Capturekohlerpointfiiring2.JPG.c4a1b10f63d745ef39ffc674162c099f.JPG

 

Sure is nice to have a son interested in an old tractor. Still testing the waters on the grand kids, they are on again, off again. 

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WVHillbilly520H
1 hour ago, JoeM said:

Jeff sure is strange but seems electrical. Input voltage okay?

It runs a long fine, (normal point arc) then this.....

1286762224_Capturekohlerpointfiiring1.JPG.3033e353bc1531a6e8c9227f87d65f9d.JPG712591642_Capturekohlerpointfiiring2.JPG.c4a1b10f63d745ef39ffc674162c099f.JPG

 

Sure is nice to have a son interested in an old tractor. Still testing the waters on the grand kids, they are on again, off again. 

I have 2 styles of spark testers, the clear plastic from HF and one of the adjustable gap units, I'll give the latter a try, the funny thing it was running (poorly) on the incorrect coil and the wiring is hacked so that may be some of it. After a few days/hours it gets at you sometimes and you have to ask for sencond opinions :eusa-think:...

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WHX??
27 minutes ago, WVHillbilly520H said:

wiring is hacked so that may be some of it.

Best thing to do Jeff if the wiring is all PO'ed cobbled is to rip out or disconnect and replace  with just the essentials to get the motor running and charging decent.  

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ebinmaine

At this point I'm basically chiming in to follow along and see what happens. I saw the post come up earlier this morning and then got busy and hadn't gotten back to replying but my first thought was also Points Gap and then followed by condenser, bad condenser ground, or even engine ground issues. 

 

I can't watch the videos on my phone either. Irritating little situations like this are exactly why I have a tendency to just hear an engine make a noise and know it's okay that it's going to run but then rip the entire wiring system out and start over with extra grounds. 

 

 

Good luck and please do keep us posted. 

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diesel cowboy

I ran this by my dad and showed him the videos.  He said from listening to them and what you describe it doing sounds like it's running a little too lean or a valve is hanging up trying to close.  When you lapped the valves did you also run a wire brush or piece of sand paper down the valve guides too?

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WVHillbilly520H
16 minutes ago, diesel cowboy said:

I ran this by my dad and showed him the videos.  He said from listening to them and what you describe it doing sounds like it's running a little too lean or a valve is hanging up trying to close.  When you lapped the valves did you also run a wire brush or piece of sand paper down the valve guides too?

The guides were IMO a tad worn the valve's while lapping moved up and down really easy. I'm sure this is where a bit of the smoke is coming from , the piston I could not rock in the bore,  and NO matter where I adjusted the Hi/Lo screws lean/rich on 3 different crabs what you see/hear is just about the best I could get the fuel... And I prefer rich over lean runs cooler especially my built SBC. I did dose the fuel with MMO and the oil with Risilone hoping the more I ran it the better it would get but those videos each are after about an hour running poorly and continued frustrations on different days.  Also the first video was before the "valve job" and head gasket.

Edited by WVHillbilly520H

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WVHillbilly520H

Got home changed out the Autolite 216 plug for Champion H10C (pics of Autolite looks rich to me dry black not white lean) and tried tightening up the point gap to .018" made it worse, went to .022" much better only about 5min run time and was able to go from idle to WOT no sputtering but spark is erratic at the points and not so much governor hunting as yesterday, so tried to go a little farther .024" back to governor hunting spark even more erratic, checked voltage at the coil while running 13.5-14 volts that should be good and the battery is staying charged, so either the points and condenser are iffy or there's a ground issue with this shaker plate engine cradle tried an inline spark tester it was bright from idle thru WOT so the coil seems very good (couldn't fine my adjustable one just to see how big a gap it could jump fire).  I suppose I might need to try genuine Kohler points and condenser next and check the rest of the wiring but I definitely had the coil wired correctly.   I am all ears...

20201130_162546.jpg

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20201130_163024.jpg

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WHX??

Looks to be the right Autolite ..... a 216  I don't think the plug brand is the issue. Perhaps the the black is coming from some worn valve guides or rings? Just thinking out loud did you check the governor adjustments? Try different spring holes? About what year is this Billy? 

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WVHillbilly520H
11 minutes ago, WHX24 said:

Looks to be the right Autolite ..... a 216  I don't think the plug brand is the issue. Perhaps the the black is coming from some worn valve guides or rings? Just thinking out loud did you check the governor adjustments? Try different spring holes? About what year is this Billy? 

The tractor was built from 1974-1978, engine from same era but decal is unreadable, I left the govenor spring in the same as it came and the original engine... I have my dad's 2 in WV I will look over this coming weekend, wouldn't oil past the rings be wet? we have a K181 that would foul a plug in 5 minutes without a nonfouler and it was wet every time we pulled it, this one is "dry" ... The engine does puffy a bit and did dose the fuel with MMO, the guides did feel a bit worn when I lapped the valve's. The erratic spark at the points does seem to the biggest problem IDK... I need to find an twin ONAN and stuff in there lol.

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WVHillbilly520H

@Greentored do you have any insights on my issues as stated from the beginning.

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Greentored
42 minutes ago, WVHillbilly520H said:

@Greentored do you have any insights on my issues as stated from the beginning.

Man, you’ve about covered all the bases! Strangely, the video and the rattle sounds exactly like what’s driving me nuts on the 1277- it won’t take more than 8-10 degrees of timing or it sounds like it’s gonna grenade. 
that's exactly where I was headed- was gonna say tighten up the point gap a bit. Strange that yours got worse when you did that. 
next thing would be to stick an old ballast resistor in line with the coil +12v and see if it helps. Even if the box says ‘internally resisted’,  don’t trust a dang thing these days. 

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WHX??

Not a bad idea Green. .. just for grins Jeffrey throw a ballast resistor on it if you have one hangin out with nothin better to do. 

Edited by WHX24

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WVHillbilly520H
10 hours ago, Greentored said:

Man, you’ve about covered all the bases! Strangely, the video and the rattle sounds exactly like what’s driving me nuts on the 1277- it won’t take more than 8-10 degrees of timing or it sounds like it’s gonna grenade. 
that's exactly where I was headed- was gonna say tighten up the point gap a bit. Strange that yours got worse when you did that. 
next thing would be to stick an old ballast resistor in line with the coil +12v and see if it helps. Even if the box says ‘internally resisted’,  don’t trust a dang thing these days. 

If I could it would have a 3cyl GEO humming between the rails but then my kid would hurt himself.

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ebinmaine
7 minutes ago, WVHillbilly520H said:

.... a 3cyl GEO humming between the rails.

 

You really got to quit giving me terrible ideas

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WVHillbilly520H
7 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

 

You really got to quit giving me terrible ideas

Only terrible if you if it doesn't come to fruition :text-bump:

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JoeM

well it sounds like it is improving and I like that resistor idea @Greentored mentions. Just thinking out loud, spark plug gap to .040 maybe? I also used (and I am going from memory here) Autolite 437 plug, I am trying to remember, I think it is hotter? The tip sticks out further into the chamber? I will have to take a look tonight if I make it up to the shop. I know I have plugs like that in the box and have helped those old engines. 

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ebinmaine
1 hour ago, WVHillbilly520H said:

Only terrible if you if it doesn't come to fruition :text-bump:

I still got this 30s vintage FM ZC3 flywheel engine to do something with.....

I can blame @Stepney Spenser for that. 

 

:lol:

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WVHillbilly520H
55 minutes ago, JoeM said:

well it sounds like it is improving and I like that resistor idea @Greentored mentions. Just thinking out loud, spark plug gap to .040 maybe? I also used (and I am going from memory here) Autolite 437 plug, I am trying to remember, I think it is hotter? The tip sticks out further into the chamber? I will have to take a look tonight if I make it up to the shop. I know I have plugs like that in the box and have helped those old engines. 

Every little bit of info helps.

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