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All rattle can here:

Back in the day he would.

Didn't take it the wrong way at all Bob! Only wanted to point out that many changes never made their way into any WH documentation. Just sharing some information I've learned. I wasn't trying to say you were wrong but more or less wanted to explain my understanding of it. But like you said, we can't be 100% sure either way on MANY things. This is exactly how most of these discussions get started and then hopefully, more people will join in with their knowledge and then we get closer to a definitive answer. Unfortunately without that documentation, all we can do is get closer but never be 100% sure.

The Clinton engine thing on the 401 has been discussed before between many of the long time collectors and the consensus points to them being a factory supplied engine. I also have a Clinton powered 401 (although I switched it to a K91). rj35hunter (Clay) keeps a list of serial numbers from these engines. Too bad he's not as active on here as he used to be since his depth of knowledge is deep. Back in the day, I used to read and research everything I could find concerning the 58 - 61 because I own those tractors. It's also easy to know the differences when you take them apart and put them back together so many times. There are many things with these old tractors which will not be in any Wheel Horse documentation, such as the solid seat pan. It was definitely an evolving production run which made changes during the year of building tractors. Especially in the early years. This is what makes it more interesting!

Not me! Isn't it amazing how worthless a verbal agreement is to some people these days?

Sorry I meant 702. Yes the steering wheel has some black tape on there.

So I told my son we cannot ride the tractors and he said that makes no sense!! At a tractor show you should be able to ride tractors. I told him we have to walk around and he said they should call it a walking show....

Within reason, them ol' 1277's can make for some beastly machines.

Aluminum block, H-60 6hp Tecumseh

There's no doubt that using a gun with hardener is tougher but I've done several with rattle cans and they hold up surprisingly well.

Dennis, these two statements actually mean the same thing since the 'dash' is part of the hood: "1961 based on the hood and belt guard" are different than the 60," "note the 61 style dash" 60's had lever controls and 61's had push/pull controls. The footrests are different. 60's were bent diamond plate and 61's cast. A quick search in the gallery will show you. As Richard said, the footrests in post #30 are mid 60's. As far as the engines go...again, there is no documentation showing anything but Kohlers and Teckys on the 60/61 Suburbans. As I said before, it's commonly said that leftover Clintons from the RJ years made it on early 60's. I think that's likely but I strongly doubt it on 61's but it really can't be said with certainty either way. Well over 50 years means a lot of changes and part swapping. There's a guy on the Clinton forum who put a Clinton on a 401 as well as a 702. As a guy who was playing with Wheel Horses in the 60's and 70's I can assure you that I wasn't the only one combining parts from different years because I perceived them as better or I just liked them better. The 72 Commando I restored for my grandson is just one example. Now you could call it a Commando B-80. I have no doubt that many things were done to these old tractors 50 years ago and over time it faded into factory original. Just another cool but sometimes confusing aspect to this addiction.

The 1277 is a great , in spite of the shortcomings it sounds like it is priced right. A wiring diagram can be downloaded here and carburetor kits are easy to come by. I would suggest that you try out the transmission before buying it. Put the front plow against a tree and put it in forward at high RPMs, it should try to bury itself, back up to it and do the same in reverse. If the tranny is good you have found a winner. The starter problem may very well be the ignition switch itself, if that is the case let us know and we can talk about options available to you. to

If I'd have been able to move about 20 feet west ( I'd be in the river ) but this is nearly the exact same spot where that pic was taken over 100 years ago . Michigan ave no longer continues to the outer harbor as it does in the pic , but it would have crossed the river right at the foot of that tall beige building ( General Mills today ) .

I think in addition to the SCUT and zero turns taking a larger share of the market, the toro name just didnt carry the same weight as "deere" or "kubota" with consumers. Sure they have a great line of commercial equipment, but the general purchasing public didnt know that. I would bet that a large share of their customers had already owned a wheel horse and knew what kind of quality and durability they carried (as evidence by them selling the 300 "classic" series up to the bitter end). If you had never owned one, you would probably lean more towards the more popular offerings. After a while, the Wheel Horse loyals couldnt carry the profitability of the brand and marketing just wasnt converting the green, orange, and yellow public. I think the farm tractor image that popped into everyone's head when they thought of deeres and kubotas played a HUGE role in their success and continuation (deere especially). No matter the quality of the machine they represented. I think that if Toro could have kept up with the heavy duty technology that others had or even been a bit more innovative they would have had a leg up (3 point, diff lock, 4WD, hydraulic ports front and/or rear, etc). I think that maybe more than $0.02 worth, but there is my opinion on the matter!

Here are photos of my 653. It is 100% original. Even the carburetor looks like it has never been touched. Although not currently on tractor I believe I may have the original battery that came with it. Also not pictured is a never mounted plow with the hardware still in the sealed bag. Tires still have a lot of the "knibs" on them.

Just want to thank you all for helping me out with the questions on my commando 8 with the wiring, starting and all of the other tractor questions i have had with other horses. It is so great to be able to have a place to go. And get good solid answers that you can trust. But to get back to it I got her fired up this morning and the little 8 horse kolher purred like a kitten. All the lights work, cig lighter, gen light. Thank again

Here's where I'm at now.... i love the dual rear wheel look...I may do that some day...as of now though I just need to get a good set of silvertowns, or something like it...both of these are junk, just there to roll it.

A few of you know I'm in the North of England - UK. I've just moved further North into the Yorkshire dales. (think Harry potter) - Look up James Herriott and malham cove It's taken over a year since we saw the place to selling ours and the money exchanging hands. Here's a few pics of the Horses in their new home and also put to work. Once I get internet and the time I've some videos too

Yes I think you are correct I will def clean the deck sharpen the blades and take smaller bites when the grass is tall. The deck bty is 37" a 2 blade configuration . The PTO may need to be adjusted as well,... you do that by turning the trunnion on the PTO lever linkage , correct? Adjust it a little so that when you engage the PTO lever it kind of "cams over" (ie) " snaps" into the engaged position right?

Debating on repainting the frame or leaving "as is"

One thing I have notice in differences between the 60 and 61 Suburban's is that the 60's have a crease on the front top of the hood that stops at the gas cap and the 61's it continues down the rest of the hood. I think this was just a strengthening crease to stiffen up the metal.

Thanks John and very well put. Sometimes I stumble wording things and my intent is easily taken wrong. Never 100% sure is exactly what I was trying to say. I'm not sure when in 1960 my 400 was made but I have to wonder if that Clinton sitting there was the original for it. The K91 that was on the tractor wasn't the correct spec but it runs good and I didn't think about the possibility of the Clinton. The tractor was an Ebay find that surprised me by being just 15 miles away (yea, in Florida at that). I contacted him and then went to look at it. I did have his email and I searched for it this morning because I was going to see if he still had the Clinton by some chance but I don't have the email anymore and he has moved back up north.

Please don't take what I said wrong John. I'm not saying it's not factory. I'm really referring to the overall identifying thing. It's that I feel it's very difficult to say with certainty on some items. The seat pan is another excellent example, the lift sector on late RJ's........etc.. I toured the plant when it was in South Bend and, even some years later than the ones we're talking about here, it was very easy to see how the workers could induce the anomalies that we see so often. When I got my 400 the guy also had a running Clinton sitting by it and asked if I wanted it. Like an idiot I told him no.

THANK YOU wallfish!! The other motor is also a Clinton engine. I have the original foot pegs but took them off so I could machine a matching set for my 701 WH. The foot rests in your picture are from a later model, perhaps a 1965 to 1968, nothing wrong with them, I have them on my 400 Suburban. See! This is the kind of thing that makes this IDing interesting but it also drives me NUTS trying to document it! "The foot rests in your picture are from a later model, perhaps a 1965 to 1968,"!!!!! I think you know I follow a lot of your posts (and for good reasons!)

It would be a very long walk back to your vehicle if you needed to get something. Like fuel.

That is one nice tractor.

Great. You are closer and closer to getting it fixed. Soak the woodruff key with pb blaster. It is semi circular so you may be able to tap one end and it will see saw out. Plan on replacing both of them when you reassemble it. Order new seals and clean up the axles. Make sure you file down the ridge at the back of the keyway so it is flush with the axle. I think you can put anti seize gunk on the axle to prevent this from happening again. I just replaced my rear axle seals so I can talk you through the reassemby from seals out. Know nothing about anything on the inside of the bearings. Sorry I didn't get you pictures of my puller. Thought I had taken some but they weren't on my phone. Keep your chin up. It will be worth it

BUY Them!!! The sickle is worth that!

I'm happy to be able to finally report some progress on the project! As some of you may remember, shortly after my last post in this thread, we had a little distraction in the form of an F4 tornado that came by our house. Thankfully, we were fortunate that our losses were much less than others, but nonetheless my hydro custom project went on hiatus. Even after things got mostly back to normal, other tractor projects popped up that were too good to pass up, pushing this tractor further down the priority list. Before getting in to the more recent developments, I should catch up on a few odds and ends from the past 18 months. Just days before the tornado, I was able to get the speed control mechanism apart and fixed up. It took some more heat and PB Blaster, but it finally came apart. I had to weld it up to take up some wear. It was sitting out on my work bench ready to put back together when the tornado hit. Despite sitting in close proximity to a door that was blown out of it's frame, it amazingly didn't get scattered everywhere. Fortunately I took the time to put everything back together before I moved the tractor out to storage during the home repair process, otherwise it would have been a much bigger job finding parts and getting it back together. Over the winter of '13/14, while we were waiting to get our house fixed, I wasn't really able to work on the tractor project. I was, however, able to think about it and refine my project plan. I knew the engine in the 8-4 was bad and the engine out of the Bronco (A K301 replacement motor with the S/G and covers from a 1057) was good. My first thought was that the '74/75 B-100 has the same 43.5" wheel base as the 8-4 and uses the bigger motor, so it should fit. I was partially correct. I found that the mounting holes in the frame were the same, but my measurements showed there just wasn't quite enough clearance for the K241/K301 air cleaner. The hood on the B-80/B-100 slopes forward to make more room up front. The 8-4 grill is vertical. As I saw it, I had two options. Find a B-80/B-100 hood, or figure out an alternative for the air cleaner. I liked the look of the 8-4 hood, so started down the air cleaner path. I stumbled across the setup for the John Deere 210-214, which has the carburetor recessed into the center of the air filter. This also required a different setup on the choke control arm on the carburetor. I found a air cleaner and carb for sale and took a chance I could make them would work. The 2 tractors sat in storage for nearly 6 months until we moved back into our house. Even before the repairs were finished, I picked up a C-160 that turned into a nice little project, but well worth it as that tractor continues to serve me well as my main work-horse. I was finally forced to do something with the Bronco and 8-4 when we moved back in, simply because the C-160 pushed me over my storage limit by 1 tractor too many. Rather than shuffle things once again and try to cram one more in the shed, I decided to bite the bullet and get started combining the two tractors. Combining the front of the 8-4 and the rear of the Bronco was actually a fairly straightforward process. The engine bolted in fairly easily as well, except for a small tweak of the grill side sheetmetal to make room for the engine blower housing. As expected, the stock air cleaner didn't fit, but the Deere one looked like it would. To get the speed control for the hydro, I had to use the pedestal from the Bronco, but I kept the dash and gas tank from the 8-4. The only modification I made was drilling holes to use the 8-4 PTO lever on the Bronco pedestal, because I wanted to have the option of using the PTO safety switch. In true Wheel Horse fashion, it all bolted up without any issues With that, I considered the fit-up stage complete. It looked like it all would bolt together, so the next step would be actually doing the wiring, throttle/choke cables and fuel lines to make it work. Before I got started on that phase of the project, a B-100 Auto came up locally that (like them all) was too good to pass up . I'll have to save that for another thread, but while it was a great deal, it needed a fair amount of work. It bumped the custom hydro project out of the shop, and between it and a few other projects, the custom hydro project sat in the shed for another 9 months.

Just click on "downloads" on the top of the page and it will bring up manuals on tractors. Here it is. file:///C:/Users/George/Downloads/Tractor%201964%20604%20654%20704%20OM%20IPL%20%23163-164.pdf

Thanks for the support everyone! Good stuff! We're might the service manuals be? Really guys, good stuff!

I worked in a service station when I was in high school. We had a customer that was his own worst enemy; he was told by a relative that his engine was "varnished up" and that was the reason the lifters were clattering. Rather than coming to us to talk about it he went to the paint store and got a quart of Varnish Remover, do you have any idea how bad an engine smells after running it with that in the crank case! When we pulled the oil pan there was stringy stuff hanging from the oil pump pick-up and globs of gunk everywhere. I wish I had a picture to share with you. After we replaced the engine with a good used one we made him pledge that he would come ask us prior to doing dumb things like that again.

I'd love to be able to show up in this!

Yep. If you go to the original site (or the original original: library of congress) they will tell you the original format and most were large format glass plate. Shorpy admits to some enhancements as well. Still, awesome old time photos (I shot exclusively film MANY years into the DSLR revolution until the cost of developing 6 months of film was more than it cost to get a semi-pro DSLR). Never got into the large format due to cost but always wished I could. Now with two (very little) kids my DSLR shooting has gotten to a real minimum overtaken by easy phone shots, but I am saving my pennies to put a decent lens on my Canon 5D Mark III waiting patiently in my camera bag. Now THAT'S a digital camera that can produce some detail.

The 5xi cab is even easier to install but has the the same pieces. Like Mike said, pop the top, remove the doors, I separate the ends from the top frame, and store it in the basement. I did replace the bolts that I need to loosen with stainless steel bolts, and the four bolts that tighten on the floorboards with stainless steel socket head screws. Spend the money on the glass windshield but shop around. It is a generic fit for all of their GT cabs and I got mine from a JD dealer for about 27% off MSRP with free shipping. I found the wiper kit from the supplier to OTC for about $100.00 less as well. I just needed to fabricate two spacers.

My limited experience with one cab. Dedicate a machine to snow chores and leave it on! my 2 cents... Of it that just isn't going to happen... Try to have overhead space where you can lift it up and off and hang it until needed again. Now that's 3 cents!

Something has been following me for a while.... It's a 1996 520-H with 414 hours. There's a 48" deck, 2-stage snowthrower, and snow cab in the back too. Needs cosmetic work and a thorough maintenance session, but the price was very good. It shouldn't take a lot to get it back to "like new" condition.

This thread is not to be looked at a "bragging", but maybe will cause some members, to get off the couch and back in shape. That shape can be anything for running, cycling, walking, cross-fit, whatever - just get off the couch YOU CAN DO IT! A LONG TIME AGO, 16 years to be exact, I walked away from becoming a professional Bodybuilder. < THAT is a long story why, but it is also a part of my testimony. Regardless why after 16 years I looked at myself 1 day and thought to myself, it's time for a change. I had let my body completely go. I had not seen the inside of a gym for 16 years. That all changed in late April this year. I decided to go at it 1 more time. This time without all the steroids, growth hormones, pain killers, insulin, diuretics, and whatever else was new at that time of my life. After 4 months here is what the accomplishments are: Started with a 36" waist, now down to 34.5" waist Weight was 230lbs. when I started, now I am 240lbs. That is after losing 10lbs right in the first 3 weeks of training and changing my diet. Jacket size varied between a 46 athletic or 48 tall, now it is 50 athletic Arm size was a soft 16.5" bicep, now it is surging to almost 18". When I walked away from bodybuilding I had a 19.5" arm Body fat was almost 13.5%, now it is down to 10%. The best I ever saw when bodybuilding was under 4% and it may have possibly been under 3%. Still have a ways to go, but feeling like I may be able to see a decently "ripped" physique at the age of 47 without any supplements at all. Just plain ol' dieting and 100% egg white protein powder. I promised myself to wait until 6 months to share any photos so please refrain from asking to "see" until I hit the 6 month mark. So what can this do for me you ask? Well, I thought it may be a positive way to help encourage others to get up and do something that you enjoy doing to help keep you fit. I like to help others with diet suggestions and meal plans. I can also suggest workout plans if that is your "cup of tea", others may have cross-fit experience they can share with the group to help out. Whatever it is, get up, and get going! YOU ONLY GET TO LIVE ONCE< MAKE IT COUNT! I will continue to post updates, and I hope others will chime in and do the same thing. Rob

I have mine hanging from the rafters of my barn on a rope and pulley system. It only takes 10 minutes to unbolt it from the tractor, then a few pulls on the rope, and it can hang all summer. 3-400 used, so 700 new seems like a good deal. Mine is 20 years old, and the windows aren't bad, but the fabric is starting to wear through where it wraps around the frame in a few places. I'm going to give it to my brother this year. Once you have had the luxury of a steel cab with real glass windows, a wiper, a defroster fan and lights, you can never go back!

You can go to Brian Millers site and read the whole thing. To put it in a short form, on Mag 14 and 16's if I read it right you should not remove the balance gears especially if you change from the Mahle Piston that was in there like I did. Says you will get a terrible vibration. I can sure attest to that. That Mahle Piston is a lot lighter in weight than the Stock old Style OEM piston that I used. I never even gave that a thought. Guess that's why I don't build race engines for a living. Side note, on the 16 mag that i mention I rebuilt for a friend, we had to use the Mahle piston because OEM standard old style was not offered or was discontinued from Kohler. Can't remember. The balance was not upset thus no vibration. Also the cost for that piston back then was about 45% cheaper then to.

Granted, it still ain't perfect, but... was able to cut and relink a belt together today...finally...see this then finally, see this puppy in action. C'mon, cut me a break, I've only had the thing for three years.

I put all the teams into my "Pick-O-Matic" and all it kept saying is Ohio State, Ohio State, Ohio State! I guess the "Pick-O-Matic" has already chosen the winner for the National Championship! RMC

Well it has been a little while since I last posted any pictures of my progress on my C165. Since my last photo update I've pretty much completed my refresh with the exception of the hood. Right now she is wearing a hood from a C125. So a rundown of everything I have done besides paint: 1) Rebuilt the engine, new Kohler rod, stator, and voltage regulator (all not cheap) 2) New carburetor 3) NOS PTO 4) Custom exhaust 5) Ag tires on all four wheels 6) Swept axle w/gear reduction steering 7) New steering wheel 8) New seat 9) Custom dash panels out of aluminum diamond plate - with tachometer, gas gauge, hour meter, and ammeter. 10) 12 volt power outlet and USB outlet to bring her to 21st century standards 11) 85% of the wiring replaced 12) LED lights front and rear 13) Custom 2" receiver I am sure there is more that I cannot think about at the moment. I just have to finish the hood before I install new decals and then I think I will have a great start to another thirty years of life. Not too bad for a worker!

Well I know it has been a while, but here is a picture of the 'work' I had the old girl doing yesterday. Even with half a ton of dirt on at first, she didn't even break a sweat!

Boy did someone cobble up that Bronco eh? The seat/hitch thingy...wouldn't want a big trailer hitched to the same thing that was keeping my butt in place. Was there some sort of bumper on the front of the Bronco? Mike..........

My first complete restoration. My nice 653 parked next to my dually 753 stock pulling tractor. Both of these tractors have been restored several years ago, and still look good.

Purchased by me from the original owner, with original deck in place, and has worked it's whole life.