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All rattle can here:

Back in the day he would.

Didn't take it the wrong way at all Bob! Only wanted to point out that many changes never made their way into any WH documentation. Just sharing some information I've learned. I wasn't trying to say you were wrong but more or less wanted to explain my understanding of it. But like you said, we can't be 100% sure either way on MANY things. This is exactly how most of these discussions get started and then hopefully, more people will join in with their knowledge and then we get closer to a definitive answer. Unfortunately without that documentation, all we can do is get closer but never be 100% sure.

The Clinton engine thing on the 401 has been discussed before between many of the long time collectors and the consensus points to them being a factory supplied engine. I also have a Clinton powered 401 (although I switched it to a K91). rj35hunter (Clay) keeps a list of serial numbers from these engines. Too bad he's not as active on here as he used to be since his depth of knowledge is deep. Back in the day, I used to read and research everything I could find concerning the 58 - 61 because I own those tractors. It's also easy to know the differences when you take them apart and put them back together so many times. There are many things with these old tractors which will not be in any Wheel Horse documentation, such as the solid seat pan. It was definitely an evolving production run which made changes during the year of building tractors. Especially in the early years. This is what makes it more interesting!

Not me! Isn't it amazing how worthless a verbal agreement is to some people these days?

Sorry I meant 702. Yes the steering wheel has some black tape on there.

So I told my son we cannot ride the tractors and he said that makes no sense!! At a tractor show you should be able to ride tractors. I told him we have to walk around and he said they should call it a walking show....

Within reason, them ol' 1277's can make for some beastly machines.

Aluminum block, H-60 6hp Tecumseh

There's no doubt that using a gun with hardener is tougher but I've done several with rattle cans and they hold up surprisingly well.

Dennis, these two statements actually mean the same thing since the 'dash' is part of the hood: "1961 based on the hood and belt guard" are different than the 60," "note the 61 style dash" 60's had lever controls and 61's had push/pull controls. The footrests are different. 60's were bent diamond plate and 61's cast. A quick search in the gallery will show you. As Richard said, the footrests in post #30 are mid 60's. As far as the engines go...again, there is no documentation showing anything but Kohlers and Teckys on the 60/61 Suburbans. As I said before, it's commonly said that leftover Clintons from the RJ years made it on early 60's. I think that's likely but I strongly doubt it on 61's but it really can't be said with certainty either way. Well over 50 years means a lot of changes and part swapping. There's a guy on the Clinton forum who put a Clinton on a 401 as well as a 702. As a guy who was playing with Wheel Horses in the 60's and 70's I can assure you that I wasn't the only one combining parts from different years because I perceived them as better or I just liked them better. The 72 Commando I restored for my grandson is just one example. Now you could call it a Commando B-80. I have no doubt that many things were done to these old tractors 50 years ago and over time it faded into factory original. Just another cool but sometimes confusing aspect to this addiction.

The 1277 is a great , in spite of the shortcomings it sounds like it is priced right. A wiring diagram can be downloaded here and carburetor kits are easy to come by. I would suggest that you try out the transmission before buying it. Put the front plow against a tree and put it in forward at high RPMs, it should try to bury itself, back up to it and do the same in reverse. If the tranny is good you have found a winner. The starter problem may very well be the ignition switch itself, if that is the case let us know and we can talk about options available to you. to

If I'd have been able to move about 20 feet west ( I'd be in the river ) but this is nearly the exact same spot where that pic was taken over 100 years ago . Michigan ave no longer continues to the outer harbor as it does in the pic , but it would have crossed the river right at the foot of that tall beige building ( General Mills today ) .

I think in addition to the SCUT and zero turns taking a larger share of the market, the toro name just didnt carry the same weight as "deere" or "kubota" with consumers. Sure they have a great line of commercial equipment, but the general purchasing public didnt know that. I would bet that a large share of their customers had already owned a wheel horse and knew what kind of quality and durability they carried (as evidence by them selling the 300 "classic" series up to the bitter end). If you had never owned one, you would probably lean more towards the more popular offerings. After a while, the Wheel Horse loyals couldnt carry the profitability of the brand and marketing just wasnt converting the green, orange, and yellow public. I think the farm tractor image that popped into everyone's head when they thought of deeres and kubotas played a HUGE role in their success and continuation (deere especially). No matter the quality of the machine they represented. I think that if Toro could have kept up with the heavy duty technology that others had or even been a bit more innovative they would have had a leg up (3 point, diff lock, 4WD, hydraulic ports front and/or rear, etc). I think that maybe more than $0.02 worth, but there is my opinion on the matter!

I know, how many transmission rebuilds can we have? This one will be a little different. The WH #5007 transmission came with the 701 and the 551 Roundhoods only, but it is basically the same as the #5025 3 speed uni-drive and the other spur gear differential transmissions in group II in the manual. The manual link... http://www.mywheelho...ns/492-4004.pdf The only visual difference I found on the outside of the transmission for identification...the drain and fill plugs are the same size...1/4" NPT with 3/8" hex head.. The WH #5025 has different sized drain and fill plugs. I cleaned out and rebuilt this transmission for Brrly1 (John). It was in bad shape. The bearings were either froze or gone, the cluster gear and both forked gears and the 11/44 toothed brake shaft gear were worn beyond use. Evidence that, who ever had this horse, did not come to complete stop before shifting. Racinfool74 had the gears we needed and the #1533 bearings. All of the rest of the bearings and seals I was able to get from Motion Industries. I will put up a sheet with all of the bearing and seal cross over numbers at the end of this post. I managed to do a video of the build of the differential and my test counter for breaking in the transmission...sorry...no video of the trans rebuild. I was having technical difficulties with the camera. How about some pictures? Cleaned and painted case halves...minus bearings and seals. John, I used Rustoleum "Regal Red". Here is what it looked like when I got it open. All of the bearings and seals...minus the #1533 ball bearings. Bearings and seals in place...flush with the outside of the case. The inside bearings are flush with the inside of the case. The needle bearing in the input shaft was gone. Picture shows the new bearing and the spline shaft that rides in the bearing. The parts that make up the differential. Here is a short video of putting the differential together. Click on video. (need to fix utube...pending) All the gears and shafts that go into the transmission. The input shaft and the forked shafts in place. Adding the 11/44 toothed brake shaft gear. All the rest of the gears...notice the differential having the nuts facing up. Also notice the reverse idler...the 5007 reverse idler is the same on both sides...usually it is beveled on one side and that bevel would face up. All done... Another short video of how I break these transmissions in and make sure they run and shift correctly. Click on video. (I need to fix my utube for this...pending) here is a list of the bearing and seal numbers...This works for 5007, 5025, 5046, 5048, 5049, 5033 3 speed uni-drives. Description.....................................WH #...................Vender #..................Quantity.......size in side axle...ball...........................1533.......................n/a...........................2................1 1/2" ID out side axle...needle....................1528......................B-1616.....................2................1' x 1 1/4" x 1" input shaft...needle........................1508......................B-1212.....................2................3/4" x 15/16" x 3/4" 11/44 gear base...needle...cap......1532......................M-16121..................1.................1" x 1 1/4" x 3/4" brake shaft top end...needle..........1530......................B-1612.....................1.................1" x 1 1/4" x 3/4" cluster gear shaft...needle...cap....1529......................M-12121...................2................3/4" x 15/16" x 3/4" input spline shaft...needle...cap.....1531......................M-10121...................2................5/8" x 7/8" x 3/4" inside input gear shaft...needle......1518.....................B-108........................1................5/8" x 15/16" x 1/2" input gear seal...............................1303.....................skf-7410....................1 axle & brake shaft seals................1232.....................skf-9815...................3 Hope this helps ... 2011_12025007BRRLY0017.MP4

Here are photos of my 653. It is 100% original. Even the carburetor looks like it has never been touched. Although not currently on tractor I believe I may have the original battery that came with it. Also not pictured is a never mounted plow with the hardware still in the sealed bag. Tires still have a lot of the "knibs" on them.

So I finally got one off my list a good running 520-h. Starts and runs great, I'm new to the hydro scene so I need to know what I have to change for oil and filters and where I can get them. Also what oil and filter should be run on these onan motors?also the dash lights on the gauges are on but headlights and tail lights aren't and the tach doesn't work any suggestions? Any help is greatly appreciated thanks in advance

I bought 2 sets of 8.5 wide rims from a 520 and a workhorse 1800 this weekend, and tonight I was looking at how clean rust wise one set was well I should say no rust, then I saw a scrape in the paint and it was shiny under it so I grabed a rag and some thinner and cleaned the paint off, mind you it took a hour to clean what you see trying not to scratch the chrome yes I said chrome, they look to have been painted when new primed and painted silver I think these are 420LSE wheels, now if I had the fronts I ask the seller if they have them. I guess buy enough junk you get a prize now and then.

I'm kinda partial to the sans fenders and toolbox look myself... pretty much, get removed the minute they roll off the truck here.

That's interesting because... the "crease" on this '61 doesn't.

One thing I have notice in differences between the 60 and 61 Suburban's is that the 60's have a crease on the front top of the hood that stops at the gas cap and the 61's it continues down the rest of the hood. I think this was just a strengthening crease to stiffen up the metal.

I guess there is more going on than meets the eye Bach-Ed

Thanks John and very well put. Sometimes I stumble wording things and my intent is easily taken wrong. Never 100% sure is exactly what I was trying to say. I'm not sure when in 1960 my 400 was made but I have to wonder if that Clinton sitting there was the original for it. The K91 that was on the tractor wasn't the correct spec but it runs good and I didn't think about the possibility of the Clinton. The tractor was an Ebay find that surprised me by being just 15 miles away (yea, in Florida at that). I contacted him and then went to look at it. I did have his email and I searched for it this morning because I was going to see if he still had the Clinton by some chance but I don't have the email anymore and he has moved back up north.

Roughly please, how long did it take you? I'd like a bargain on a 48 for my 416 and I really need something at least for my 520Lxi but while I'm frugal with $$$ I also have less than enough time... Dennis it didn't take me very long to convert the deck over. Transfering the spindle shafts was easy as was the Tach-a-mattic hardware. I had to use an angle grinder to remove a bracket associated with the original vertical engine attachment. All mounting holes were there so it went smoothly. I still haven't used it to cut grass!

Please don't take what I said wrong John. I'm not saying it's not factory. I'm really referring to the overall identifying thing. It's that I feel it's very difficult to say with certainty on some items. The seat pan is another excellent example, the lift sector on late RJ's........etc.. I toured the plant when it was in South Bend and, even some years later than the ones we're talking about here, it was very easy to see how the workers could induce the anomalies that we see so often. When I got my 400 the guy also had a running Clinton sitting by it and asked if I wanted it. Like an idiot I told him no.

They come in three's!

Some differences between years 61 suburban - cast clutch pedal, push/pull controls, rounded cast foot rests, 551 is only mid engine tractor that has 2 pc trans 60 suburban - bent steel clutch pedal, lever controls, rectangle foot rests made of diamond plate steel Dhodge's pic also shows the early 61 foot rests which are straight up and down, later they were angled a few degrees with the top pointed outward.

The foot rests in your picture are from a later model, perhaps a 1965 to 1968, nothing wrong with them, I have them on my 400 Suburban.

I've been using tractor paint with uv protection and i quality primer from rattle cans and its help well

So that brings us up to the past month or so. The B-100 auto that I bought, in all reality, fills the role that the custom hydro project tractor was supposed to. I debated on just killing the custom project all together, but in the end I decided I had collected too many good parts to quit on it now. Before I spent any more money finding additional parts, I decided to finish hooking everything up and at least make sure it ran and drove. I recalled that the engine seemed to run well, and the hydro worked, albeit with a few minor issues, so combined, they should work. Unfortunately it had been long enough ago that I tested them that I couldn't quite remember all the particulars. The first task was the wiring. I found the key switch bad so I had to replace that. For the electrical system, much like the rest of the tractor, I decided to pick the best attributes of multiple tractors. I kept the S/G on the engine, but wanted the safety switches and the starting solenoid from the newer electrical systems. It wasn't hard, but did require a little bit of though on how to merge the two. The fuel line was pretty straightforward. I used the 8-4 plastic tank, which just has a barb on the bottom so I used the shut-off valve mounted on the left side of the pedestal. The throttle cable was installed as normal, but the choke on the JD carb had to be activated by pulling up, so I ran the choke cable over the top of the engine. I had to use a series of pipe elbows to route the exhaust to clear the hood, and ran that into a Gravely muffler. I left the air cleaner modification for later until I was sure the tractor was going to work like I wanted it to. I started bolting all the rest of the sheet metal back on the tractor. The belt guard for the 8-4 didn't work with the auto trans, and the belt guard from the Bronco was hacked up. I went to put a better guard on that I had collected along the way, and found why the Bronco guard was modified. The engine had a non-original pulley on it that stuck out farther than the original. I found an original one from my parts collection and put it on. The belt guard fit much better, and I'm sure the belt alignment was improved as well. Just out of preference, I used the Bronco steps with punched tread holes instead of the 8-4 solid steps with tread tape. With everything bolted back together, the moment of truth arrived to see if it would actually run. After sitting for over a year, it took a bit to get the engine fired, but once it did it ran great. The hystat seemed to work good although it made a terrible noise, which I later found to be the belt guard rubbing on the PTO clutch. The bracket on the 8-4 frame doesn't line up with the lower front guard bracket on the hydro belt guard, so the guard could move and hit the pulley. For now I took the PTO clutch back off until I can weld another bracket for the guard. With the clutch out of the way, the noise was gone and it was much more pleasant to drive. Before driving the tractor too much more, I figured I should get a functional air cleaner on it. To do this I had to relocate the holes for the carburetor so I could rotate the air cleaner to make it fit inside the front of the hood. The air cleaner is shaped like a camshaft lobe, and on the Deere there was a hose that took fresh air from the blower housing on the engine into the "lobe" part of the air cleaner. In that orientation, the lobe was in the way of the hood closing. I was able to fit it inside the hood by rotating that lobe to the top part of the engine. It was tricky to get just right to clear everything, but I eventually found an orientation that worked. I drilled new holes to bolt up to the carb, and filled the original holes with washers and weld (and lots of grinding). While I was at it, I covered the fresh air opening on the back side of the cleaner, and drilled holes in the cover to draw air in through the headlight opening. With that, I had a fully functional tractor. Now the fun could really begin…

Now that's what I'm talking about! Can't wait to get it home so I can start tinkering. Where'd you get the front loader rig? I don't need one, but I want it!

There's a bunch of Stover CT-2 videos on Youtube... might find something there that would help you. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=stover+ct2 Quoted this from the ..."CT-2 running a bit slower" video there... "Did a little work on the governor on the Stover CT2. I replaced the spring with one that was less stiff and as a result, its running much slower now. When it was running faster, I really didnt care for running it. Now that its cruising along slower, I really enjoy running it"

No Mike. Thanks to you... I'm now going to need a Cletrac crawler too.

For years now... I've been wanting one of these ol' Studes... ...and the crustier, the better too.

Here are the manuals if you don't have them Tractor http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/files/file/4511-tractor-1993-244-5-da-om-ipl-wiring-snpdf/ 38" SD mower deck http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/files/file/5180-mower-rotary-38in-sd-1993-78215-om-ipl-snpdf/ Mower deck service bulletin http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/files/file/3987-toro91-preslt-lt18-240-series-38in-42in-mowerspdf/ Garry

If you decide to go the manual PTO route, you will probably need a drive pulley also as the clutch bolts to it.

NICE Dhodge! I would never say with any conviction that it's not original nor would I say it is. Who could know for sure unless they actually bought it new. I remember my Dad bringing home our first Wheel Horse. It was a brand new 1960 Suburban 400. That started my addiction at the ripe old age of 5. I sure as heck don't remember the details that always come up in question about what was original. Clintons were big players way back then and very popular. I can't help but believe that Wheel Horse used up their stock in 1960 and who knows if they happened to find a few more so they put them on 61's. Or, maybe an out of box failure for the Kohler and the dealer had a Clinton on his shelf and used it. Growing up a stones throw from the factory we knew many folks that worked there. But it wasn't a hobby then and many of them got a kick out of this young kid who loved playing with little red tractors. During the 60's and 70's who's to say with certainty what was done to them. One factory worker that was just down the road could have opened up a Wheel Horse parts business with all the new parts in his garage. Yup, probably brought home in his lunch box. Many times my Dad would call him seeing if he had something for the 400 and then a 704. Who knows if it was correct for the year but we didn't care at the time. Again Dhodge, I'm certainly not saying your Clinton isn't original but I do know I wouldn't change one thing on your 61. That's one of the finest era correct Wheel Horses I've seen and I love it.

Personally I believe it is an original motor. I believe a few Clinton B-1290's made it on 1961 models. I have one like it too

Tom & Jason....Please keep steve of trouble...want to see at next year Portage show!

My limited experience with one cab. Dedicate a machine to snow chores and leave it on! my 2 cents... Of it that just isn't going to happen... Try to have overhead space where you can lift it up and off and hang it until needed again. Now that's 3 cents!

Hard to imagine the day would come... when it's politically incorrect to ride a piece of antique machinery around at an antique machinery show.

Oh sorry. well the manual that i down loaded for the electrical did not have the generator light or the cig lighter in the schematic. But then was sent one that did by the red square members. Then when i tried to start it. I had good spark, fuel, but just would not fire up. Come to find out my float was stuck open. So it would just flood out. Fixed that and she off and running great.

Day one, cut up the blue loader and save the brackets and all hydraulic items, doneNow done till Saturday.

This will be my second one with a deck and loader. Hope pics are coming. I run the pump off of the left side of the Kohler and it runs full time, like live hydraulics. the deck mount was place far back of the tack matic as to not effect it. and it works great and the deck also acts a low wt. balancer for stability Here are pics of the new messed loader I found

You need a bar or finger to trap the belt when the clutch is pressed... its the small piece of metal over the idler pulley that you can see

The old deck is pretty quiet, just getting soft in one spot so I decided to get this deck and swap a few bits around. For the price, I couldn't turn it down! I'll most likely be selling the old deck since the spindles are good and I don't need it. Someone could. I am glad I put the swept forward axle on, think with the different gauge wheels on it may not fit! Here is what it looks like.

Well it has been a little while since I last posted any pictures of my progress on my C165. Since my last photo update I've pretty much completed my refresh with the exception of the hood. Right now she is wearing a hood from a C125. So a rundown of everything I have done besides paint: 1) Rebuilt the engine, new Kohler rod, stator, and voltage regulator (all not cheap) 2) New carburetor 3) NOS PTO 4) Custom exhaust 5) Ag tires on all four wheels 6) Swept axle w/gear reduction steering 7) New steering wheel 8) New seat 9) Custom dash panels out of aluminum diamond plate - with tachometer, gas gauge, hour meter, and ammeter. 10) 12 volt power outlet and USB outlet to bring her to 21st century standards 11) 85% of the wiring replaced 12) LED lights front and rear 13) Custom 2" receiver I am sure there is more that I cannot think about at the moment. I just have to finish the hood before I install new decals and then I think I will have a great start to another thirty years of life. Not too bad for a worker!

Well I know it has been a while, but here is a picture of the 'work' I had the old girl doing yesterday. Even with half a ton of dirt on at first, she didn't even break a sweat!

My first complete restoration. My nice 653 parked next to my dually 753 stock pulling tractor. Both of these tractors have been restored several years ago, and still look good.