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Mastiffman

T-WH 418-6.. Worth it to purchase?

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Hello gang,

 

 Have a question about this model as I have an opportunity to purchase a used one in god shape for $425 delivered.

 It has 632hr on it and the infamous run and then shut off. Which I'm guessing is the Ignition Voltage Regulator under the flywheel being that it's a common problem with these Onan Engine and the amount of grass and garbage that collects under there in that area. Seller states that the "engine runs strong and tight"... The unit is NOT a Hydro but is an 8 speed and looks to be a good condition. Has new Deck Spindles and Blades with grease fittings. It comes with a 50" deck. I currently have a 1988 Belt Driven 52" Scag walk behind with a Kawasaki v420 engine with a slight knock it. But it's been that way since I got it about 8 years ago... 

 With the work involved in the repair and the price is this 416-8 tractor with the time and money? Especially not being a Hydro... Should I just wait to find a good deal on a Hydro or get this one as I can always resell it... I like the Hydraulic setup of the H series as well as the slightly wider stance in the front end...

 

 I've Attached some Photos. I haven't seen this unit in person ad the gentlemen selling me the unit is going to be driving 15-20 miles to drop if off.

 

 There are a couple Hydros in the area but they are asking $1200-$1750...

 

 Thoughts and experience?

 

 Thanks.

 

 Andrew C. 

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Edited by Mastiffman
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Welcome! I make some points below, but regardless, i think that price is a good deal for that tractor, the body work looks to be in great shape just dirty.

 

6 minutes ago, Mastiffman said:

infamous run and then shut off

This could be many things... Are you referring to surging or it runs for a few minutes then quits? A few more details here would be great.

 

7 minutes ago, Mastiffman said:

Ignition Voltage Regulator under the flywheel

I've never heard of this? The voltage regulator is on the shroud, the coil is up top. There are some ignition trigger parts under the flywheel, but I don't think its terribly common for them to go out, I could be wrong though, never had to go in there.

 

I think the most common big issues we Wh folk see are dirt in the carb causing surging and sometimes stalling, followed by bad valve seat on rear cylinder that will cause hard starting and very poor running in general. 

 

12 minutes ago, Mastiffman said:

It comes with a 50" deck

That would be a 48" side discharge deck, not that 2" matters, but just so you are aware. 

 

13 minutes ago, Mastiffman said:

Especially not being a Hydro..

Lots of people around here prefer the 8-speeds too. They are bulletproof and dead-simple. And check out low-range first gear... It always puts a smile on peoples faces when they realize how much torque is available in that gear...

 

14 minutes ago, Mastiffman said:

I like the Hydraulic setup of the H series as well as the slightly wider stance in the front end...

The 520H is the only tractor with a wider stance front end, the other H's dont have the larger front end and most dont have the larger rear tires of the 520H

 

 

Overall I think that tractor is in real good shape (especially if you can solve the running issue) and I think you will like it as is. :handgestures-thumbupright:

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7 minutes ago, bmsgaffer said:

 

Welcome! I make some points below, but regardless, i think that price is a good deal for that tractor, the body work looks to be in great shape just dirty.

 Thanks for the reply!  I initially felt the same way.

7 minutes ago, bmsgaffer said:

 

This could be many things... Are you referring to surging or it runs for a few minutes then quits? A few more details here would be great.

 The seller stated in the listing that the engine runs "Strong and tight"
 but could run for 40 minutes or 5 minutes and then shuts off like someone turned the ignition off. Then if he waits for it to cool down a bit and then tries to restart it, it fires up again and cycles through the same scenario over and over.

7 minutes ago, bmsgaffer said:

 

I've never heard of this? The voltage regulator is on the shroud, the coil is up top. There are some ignition trigger parts under the flywheel, but I don't think its terribly common for them to go out, I could be wrong though, never had to go in there.

 OH, that may be what I am referring to. ha ha. I read quite a few threads on various sits until 1am last night and they al came to the same conclusion when it was just the above symptom without the surging issue. It was the voltage regulator.

7 minutes ago, bmsgaffer said:

 

I think the most common big issues we Wh folk see are dirt in the carb causing surging and sometimes stalling, followed by bad valve seat on rear cylinder that will cause hard starting and very poor running in general. 

 I will keep that in mind and maybe ask for a video today of the unit starting before fully committing to the purchase.

7 minutes ago, bmsgaffer said:

 

That would be a 48" side discharge deck, not that 2" matters, but just so you are aware. 

 Thanks for the heads up. Question on this, Can I get a larger deck for this model and just swap them out without any extra fabrication? That would be ideal.

7 minutes ago, bmsgaffer said:

 

Lots of people around here prefer the 8-speeds too. They are bulletproof and dead-simple. And check out low-range first gear... It always puts a smile on peoples faces when they realize how much torque is available in that gear...

That good to hear on the quality. Will I need to fully stop this tractor and change gears and forward and backward (assuming I were to be making back and forth passes on my lot during mowing? 
 And first gear sounds fun! ;)

7 minutes ago, bmsgaffer said:

 

The 520H is the only tractor with a wider stance front end, the other H's dont have the larger front end and most dont have the larger rear tires of the 520H

I didn't realize that. SO I would have to hunt down a 520h specifically for that feature.

7 minutes ago, bmsgaffer said:

 

 

Overall I think that tractor is in real good shape (especially if you can solve the running issue) and I think you will like it as is. :handgestures-thumbupright:

 

 Yes, the listing was pretty informative, especially when compared to other listings descriptions (tractor, runs, selling for $xxx).

 Thanks for the input..

 

 

 

 

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The tranny has straight cut gears and no syncros, just like real farm tractors of the same vintage,  you came to a stop to changes gears.

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It sounds like it's worth the money as is or shoot him a lower offer and see what happens. You know from the start it will need some work.  :)

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Noticed it has the bracket for attaching snow blade etc.. that's  a real plus - generally running 65 to 125 dollars depending...did he say anything about having a snow blade or other attachment that you might be able to snag???.:)

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2 hours ago, Mastiffman said:

run for 40 minutes or 5 minutes and then shuts off like someone turned the ignition off. Then if he waits for it to cool down a bit and then tries to restart it, it fires up again and cycles through the same scenario over and over.

That sounds like a bad fuel tank cap, the vent gets plugged and as fuel is consumed a vacuum forms in the tank.

:WRS:              Price sounds about right and once you have used an eight speed I bet you will like it.   :handgestures-thumbupright:

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2 hours ago, pfrederi said:

The tranny has straight cut gears and no syncros, just like real farm tractors of the same vintage,  you came to a stop to changes gears.

 Gotcha. Straight cut, no sync, must stop first. Not really liking that part. Are these more reliable than that of one with Syncros?

 

2 hours ago, DougC said:

It sounds like it's worth the money as is or shoot him a lower offer and see what happens. You know from the start it will need some work.  :)

 He had it listed for $850 and I ask him if he wanted to trade a Toshiba 55" 1080p 240hz, passive 3D LED LCD Tv complete in Box and he said no (said he's older and most likely wouldn't know how to use it. smh)
 So, I asked what would be his lowest price. He $600 for negotiating and $400 for "It runs great, I'll take it"....? interesting huh... 

 

1 hour ago, Jerry77 said:

Noticed it has the bracket for attaching snow blade etc.. that's  a real plus - generally running 65 to 125 dollars depending...did he say anything about having a snow blade or other attachment that you might be able to snag???.:)

I asked if he had any extra's and he said no being that he originally purchased the tractor to harvest the engine for his Skid Steer. But he sold that and wants to move this to make room before winter. He already looked into the engine issue though. So I'm wondering about that. He said he would start it. I asked for a video of it before I fully commit. So we'll see how much patience he has... ;)

 

35 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

That sounds like a bad fuel tank cap, the vent gets plugged and as fuel is consumed a vacuum forms in the tank.

:WRS:              Price sounds about right and once you have used an eight speed I bet you will like it.   :handgestures-thumbupright:

Thanks, I've heard others suggest that, but with the issues that are common like this and then fixed by replacing the voltage regulator or ignition module (whatever it is) and with as many threads I've read just last night that were solved by replacing this part, I'm going to plan on that. BUT, I will do the simple stuff first like this as I always do with any deduction/ process of elimination... Thank you though for the suggestion either way. 

Edited by Mastiffman
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Others can correct me if I am wrong but you need the forward swept axle for a larger deck and only 520's had those. An axle swap is not out of the question tho.

1 hour ago, Mastiffman said:

Are these more reliable than that of one with Syncros?

Lets just say there are no syncros to wear out

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Also wanted to add that the seller is saying that it will need an Ignition Module. I looked on toros website and those are only on the 1991-1992 models. 1993 and on uses the Ignition Control, Ignition Coil and Regulator. 
 
 So would I be looking at the similar issue? I read that I may just need to clean up the ignition module and check the gap between it and the flywheel if that's even possible. To ensure proper spark... maybe check it with a Multi-meter while it's off. 

EDIT: Spoke with the seller and he's saying he thinks that this 416-8 is late 80's early 90's.... makes sense if he's talking about an ignition module.  

Edited by Mastiffman

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Those Onans have the elctronic ignition modules through 1997 as my 520 does it's behind the flywheel with the charging stator most likely the issue with run and cut off cool repeat..., and yes only the 520 after '90-'91 with the swept forward front axle can handle the 60" mowing deck therefore the 48" is the largest the 416 can use but that's all I've used since new in '98, ...below are the module and trigger which while your in there should be replaced TOGETHER, notice the front axle "bowing/sweeping" forward,Jeff.

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Thanks. The Toro site shows an Ignition Module on the 91' and 92' but it looks like I was seeing that under the Kohler Engine section. Not sure why this guy is saying that it needs an Ignition Module. 

 Okay, so Ignition Module and Ignition Rotor (that's wnhat toros site is calling it)???

 SO I'm looking at $250- $260 to get this thing running right again? Or can these parts be found elsewhere for substantially less?

EDIT:
Onanparts.com

Ignition Module... $99

 

Electronic Ignition Rotor... $20 Not bad... 

 

 Any tips or tricks that anyone can recommend when performing this repair?

P.S. Hillbilly, You've been using a 48" deck for a while now?

 

 

Edited by Mastiffman

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Mastiffman,

 

The parts you are referring to are specific to Onan and are priced at about $120 before shipping from Onanparts.com. Boomer may have them for less, you would have to check with him. However, these components rarely partially fail. They either work or they don't and there is a procedure whereby you can check them out with a mulit-meter. What you describe sounds more like a coil/condenser failure to me. Coils will in fact act like that (run until heated up then break down and cause the engine to quit firing). Coils used on the Onan P series engines cost about $100. One advantage to Wheelhorse as opposed to other brands that incorporate Onan's is that you can pull the flywheel without pulling the engine....................Hope this helps...............Gary

Edited by GMan
to correct spelling
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Yes, that's very helpful! 

I may have found me a Majorly Sweet Deal... 2 for the same price as this one... 520h and 312-8 both with decks, blade and blower... The 520h looks a little rough but I'm getting details right now... Crossing my fingers. 

Here is the 520H... Decks are 42" and 46"... 

20hp Onan on 520h and 12hp Kohler on 312-8
 

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More pics... 

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Edited by Mastiffman

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Oh I also need to mention that the running problem for the 416-8 could very well be related to the fuse block. That often gets corrosion and causes running problems.

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I had the same problem with my 16hp Onan.  Might mow the entire lawn and go for days then it might not start at all or might start right up and run for 5 and die like the coil wire fell off or by the key.

 

There's a "Known good" trigger waiting for me to install.

 

I'm pretty sure that's your problem as well.

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28 minutes ago, DennisThornton said:

I had the same problem with my 16hp Onan.  Might mow the entire lawn and go for days then it might not start at all or might start right up and run for 5 and die like the coil wire fell off or by the key.

 

There's a "Known good" trigger waiting for me to install.

 

I'm pretty sure that's your problem as well.

 

 

Well hopefully with these two that I'll be picking up today, I won't have to worry much about that. But I will be prepared for it now knowing.

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Mastiffman,

 

So did you end up getting any of those tractors?

 

Gary

Edited by GMan

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On 10/8/2016 at 10:55 AM, GMan said:

Mastiffman,

 

So did you end up getting any of those tractors?

 

Gary

 

 Sorry for the late response... 

 YES! :D Not sure of the year on either. 

I got:

1. 312-8 with 42" Deck and has 416 hours on it.... (Model Number- 73362 Serial #- 5901709)

2. 520h with 46" Deck and has over 2300 yes 2300 hours on it!? :blink: (no label under seat but can see where is was. Onan P220 label = Model P220G-I/ 10955C.... Seriel # E893552882

3. Plow

4. Snow Thrower (I think it's missing a bar on the bottom? Nothing attached to the pin on the bottom rear. 

 

Initial Diagnosis of 312-8:

12hp Kohler runs great! No Smoke, knocking or clicking. Oil looks old, air cleaner too. Starting components work well and properly. Front right wheel bearing blown out and wheel may need replacing if not the spindle as well Depending on extent of damage. Steering seems moderately tight still with a smidge of slack but that could be due to the right wheel bearing being blown out. Ball joints still seem solid though on both sides and left spindle and wheel are tight. Body is solid. Typical grime. Needed a battery as didn't have one. Tires are turf savers and old. Two rears leaked out half of air over 2-3 days. tread not to bad though. Could use inner tubes for a while. All gears seem to work fine as well as the parking break, mule, lights and clutch/ break. Rear end doesn't seem to have any leaks and both rear wheels are nice and solid. Seat is junk but usable. 

Initial Diagnosis of 520h:

20hp Onan (P220G-I), runs good. A little slow in throttle response. Smokes on initial startup and if quick throttle given and a unnoticeable (during daylight) exhaust that was noticed crossing the headlight path at night. Could be the carb needing attention as it surges when running full throttle with the deck on and blades engaged. No knocking or ticking though. So that is a good sign to me. I'm okay with honing and new rings for sure! (my 1970 Onan 6.0 CCKB generator has a weird knock that I could use help with). Starter works fine but noticed the flywheel has some grinding evidence on motor side but starts. Could have been a past bad starter or soemthing. Throttle lever doesn't stay fully open (i.e. Up!). Drops a bit after a few seconds as it's loose. Front right spindle has play horizontally (pulling outward on top of tire)... QUESTION: Does the Spindle or Axle get worn first? Frame looks solid. Mule works fine. Body panels have some surface rust but are solid. Most of surface rust is top facing sheet metal (i.e. Hood Stand plate, foot rests and a little on the fender). Ignition fell apart and I replaced it already. Wiring harness has at least one short that revealed itself when I replaced the ignition. I noticed the wire upon first getting the machine home but it wasn't affecting startup until I replaced the ignition. From disturbing it I assume. All lighting panel warning lights work. Test light good, but headlight switch is deteriorating and faulty. Also, there's a black wire coming from the ignition coil that was just floating around. Put a wire nut on it and secured it as everything is working at this point. Motion lever moves fine between forward, neutral and reverse. Motion lever doesn't hold it's position though. QUESTION: Is it supposed to? Hydraulics lever work fine. Lifts deck and plow up and down (haven't tried the Snow blower as said, it's missing a bar). Tires also leak but rear wheels are solid. Looks to be some minute leaking of the hydraulics in a place or two. Engine drips oil at a couple of drops every half a day but it looks to be coming from the oil drain pipe and plug area. All gauges but the Rpm work. Rpm gauge seems to not read correctly but does move. Only one light works on the gauges, on fuel gauge... Not really anything missing other than one rear hub. The other three are present. Not worried about that. Overall, levers are functional but seem a little loose. Not surprising seeing the 2359 hours on it. But whomever had it the longest really use it but also took moderate care of it. Seat is destroyed basically.

 

Initial Attachemnts Diagnosis:

-Both decks are in good shape. Grime underneath, junk blades, clean on top with mild surface rust spots here and there. Nothing extensive. Spindles seem fine and well maintained. 

-Plow works fine and is rusting but solid.

-Snow Thrower is rusty as well. Directional shoot missing a rotational guide washer and motion wire is destroyed. It's missing some type of bar or brace at the bottom though so that it can be lifted unless the plow support can be used? Not sure on that... 

 So, there it is... I'm pretty excited about it all. I plan on getting them both completely functional and then will start the tear down process to clean up and restore as best as possible. I'll be looking for good deals on parts so please let me know if anyone has connections. I'd be very grateful. Been scouring ebay already. 

Edited by Mastiffman

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As to spindle wear either one spindle itself or axle can wear.  Lots depends on if it was lubed and how often.  The condition of the wheel bearings is a factor  Tiy will see the wear when you pull them.  Also the hole in the cast front axle can get wallowed out especially if it wasn't greased well..

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