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ArturHawk

To Rebuild or Not To Rebuild

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ArturHawk

Hi All,

 

I have a 10hp Tecumseh HH100 on my Raider 10. It knocks and burns oil, but still runs pretty decently. I was pushing dirt with the snow plow in 4th gear while idling and the engine would still make the wheels spin before it would slow down. It's just loud...

 

Hoping the knock might not be from the rod, I decided to check the spark plug...which was not so great.

20200729_185055.jpg.4f2477f304d2b3f40b3fd3b14b929ed4.jpg

 

So I decided to take the head off and look inside.

20200729_203303.jpg.809c67094b644cdb60b45e469d28e8d2.jpg

20200729_203631.jpg.8e6053e585a20957c78bba976b2fc774.jpg

 

The chamber wall has no ridge to it and looks good. So I cleaned everything up and put it back together with new fuel lines, fuel filter, air filter, spark plug, cleaned the carb, and put it back to factory settings for tuning.

 

20200729_204803.jpg.72fe17fbc718b60942867647de8c8fff.jpg

 

As a side note, the pivot pin for my fuel filter had slid to the right so crankcase air could enter and exit from the left side of the filter...This seemed to be a problem, so I pushed it in place (seemed to be secure...I couldn't move it back out again) and made a "hat" for my pump to keep the pin in place.

20200729_213153.jpg.2d05f72f0ba785c2f9a8127238a2e06a.jpg

 

Everything back together and it still smokes and knocks. I bought a can of engine restore to see if it could help. Should I just leave it be as long as it runs? Is there something simple i'm missing? Do I need to rebuild? Are there any good rebuilders in the Central PA area?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

 

 

 

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Tractorhead

Your cylindre looks too glossy to me and no crosshatch is seen,

the cylindre seems to have no visible damages, so it could be able to re use if its not out of its Round,

what seems on the Picts is given but the miss of any crosshatch means wear

and caused more in a Oilpump instead of an Engine.

 

the knock you told in combination with that Pict of your cylindrewalls points me closer to an worn out con Rod.

I would rebuild that engine instead of killing it by running further with that status.

 

Pull the piston and look with an inserted Pistonring and a feelergauge if the cylindre is in tolerance.

somwhere did a good description how this beeing made here in the Forum, but i forget who it was.

May you find that Thread with the Search as an guide.

 

if you’re lucky and the Wear is not completely out of tolerance just a new crosshatch,

new Pistonrings and a new or maybe a used connection rod will be the cheapest Deal for a running Engine back again

without any knock.

Edited by Tractorhead
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953 nut
1 hour ago, Tractorhead said:

Pull the piston and look with an inserted Pistonring and a feelergauge if the cylindre is in tolerance.

somwhere did a good description how this beeing made here in the Forum, but i forget who it was

:text-thankyouyellow:

I guess this is the thread.

 

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pacer

I think youre really lucky that that engine hasnt already 'detonated' That knocking is almost certainly the rod being loose and since you have been running it for sometime -- the crankshaft will very likely need to be turned. You might luck out on the cylinder wear and get by with new rings in standard. But one thing is for sure ..... you definitely need to stop running it, if that rod comes loose you could easily blow a hole in the block.

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ArturHawk

Well, we all make mistakes and today I made a big one. First engine I've ever destroyed. This isn't gonna be cheap, but when i'm done I'll have a good machine for many years to come.

 

 Against the excellent advice I received from @Tractorhead, @953 nut, and @pacer, I ran the tractor today for the last time for a while. I tried to use the engine restore hoping I could at least pull through the season before breaking everything down for a rebuild. I changed the engine oil 3 times to clear the old oil out and put the restore in. Tractor seemed to like it so I decided to cut grass. The longer we went the better everything felt...then SNAP and we came to an abrupt halt. Taking the engine head off again, the chamber was in much better condition...no pool of oil and a clean spark plug. The restore had been starting to work on fixing the cylinder walls, which was probably not in my favor. More compression = more likely to kill a weak engine.

 

I Towed the tractor up to the driveway for disassembly. I didn't know what I needed to remove, so in my frustration, I just started turning bolts.

20200801_212057.jpg.f07adaa03e3bc8d99b0ffa77665d2ca9.jpg20200801_212105.jpg.e44172dfc09c8f478146ab530fa0f301.jpg

 

Good news is no bolts broke and I was able to get the engine off fairly easily. I will definitely need a new drive belt when this goes back together. Old one had more cracks than a sidewalk.

 

I also noticed that the woodruff key for the flywheel and machine key for the drive pulley were in bad condition, one sheared and the other almost sheared. I hope this happened when everything broke and had not been this way for a while.

 

20200801_195459.jpg.6fa406027882d61a88113de4c73bc485.jpg20200801_214358.jpg.7a123ca22b61b7883c4743a4614591d1.jpg

 

Once I got the side of the engine off, you can quickly see the catastrophe.

 

381867899_20200801_214505(1).jpg.5829f4330964d0f78f7c54b70c2fa66a.jpg

 

I removed all the pieces and set them out to get a good account of what is broken. Looks like connecting rod and camshaft are broken. Crankshaft seems to be worn quite a bit too.

 

20200801_215056.jpg.afc4d4667d3f8cf471bfbf037e99e3c4.jpg20200801_215119.jpg.1245b1c90decbd69ebfc2847cce0abfd.jpg

 

Good news is the cylinder seems to have not been damaged. You can physically feel the transition between smooth and crosshatched areas. I am sure this will need to be machined. The current piston is a +.010. I hope a +.030 will work. I'll have to measure it and find out.

 

20200801_220113.jpg.0979c513e31d449b4159aa72e8d8e611.jpg

 

An item that confused me was the dipstick. Is this all the oil that is needed for the engine. It just feels like the dipstick is a little long for the block, but I've never opened up an engine before...

20200801_215133.jpg.6b347f7b0df8ebf3f48007a7d368f938.jpg

 

While checking out the main bearing races for signs of wear, one of them just popped out. Is this a problem, or can I just put it back in and use it?

 

20200801_215751.jpg.de21b8f77d9885b434ae7754933f1adc.jpg

 

Also, my governor "flag" seems a bit worn. Do I need another one or can I ignore this?

 

20200801_215656.jpg.758a0a2f856911ef5497cebf3a825cbf.jpg

 

So, all in all, if the cylinders have enough left on them to machine I'm thinking I need the following:

New piston and rings

Connecting rod

Crankshaft (a used one on eBay should be fine, right? anything specific to watch out for?)

Camshaft

Lifters (mine are visibly "necked down" from wear)

Gasket set

Main seals (Engine didn't leak before, but while i'm here...)

Woodruff key and machine key

A good machine shop

 

Did I miss anything? Any recommendations?

 

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oliver2-44

Take your crankshaft to the machine shop with your block to see if they can gring the crank journal 0.010 ths under-size.  then you would need a rod with an under-size journal.  Also take your valves to the machine shop so they can grind them and the valve seats in the block, or tell you you need new valves.   

If you buy a crankshaft on Ebay, have the seller send you precision measurements of the crank and main journals to insure it is usable. some for sale may be as worn as yours.  You might contact one of our vendors, A-Z tractor, hes very good to deal with.

Considering what all your replacing I would replace the main bearings.

I have a good sized box of NOS Tecumseh parts I got at an estate sale.  I really haven't researched what it all fits.  @ArturHawk send me a PM or Post a list of the part numbers you are looking for and call me into the post with the @oliver2-44 and I will compare what I have.  If anything fits, it's yours for the cost of shipping.  it will be Monday evening before i can see what I might have.

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Tractorhead

Ooohhh F***

 

a closer inspection on you Picts give me few results.

The close killed woodruff key seems a resultat of your broken camshaft and the immediately lockup of the Engine.

 

The sleevebearings of your camshaft should be normally primary silver ( protection surface with tin or lead) what is completely done.

that tells me it runns longer time with too old oil ( worse lubrication) or the wrong oil, what results in a lot of wear and rubing out the emergency surface of the camshaft bearing and even conrod bearing.

 

the dipstick seems ok for me, the oillevel seems also to be right for me and be in right levels because this Engines are splash lubricated. A to low idle rpm can also cause such symptoms, while not enough lubrication on that points.

 

28F049BB-E54D-493E-9512-6BD11825AE9B.jpeg.2be4349b6e1ab184d48b0135f26c2b7c.jpeg

 

in that Pict you can see the Camshaft bearing looks to pure copper with a lot of Wear,

what give me the indication of wrong service maintenance and or worse or missing oil as result of that a heavier Wear.

 

E4FC0FE8-E3C2-4D33-8B9E-DB33A0BC2975.jpeg.cef765a49413ac964da8c44ea945f2c1.jpeg

 

in the right side of that pict i believe to see a lot of oil sludge with aluminum and or metal grind in.

That must be seen in the drained oil as a lightly „silver film“ and be a alarm sign, something is wrong in that Engine.

 

as a result of that happen i see two options.

 

1. Take that engine to a machine shop ( if you not be able to do that yourself) and let it rework as Jim allready mentioned.

This take it‘s time and a complete reworking of that Engine wasn‘t too hard but need it’s time it must be made with care,

that the reworked Engine lasts. Any time critical decisions could be contraproductive.

 

2. look for an used exchange Engine to be in shortest Time back in business and rework that Engine as spare.

 

here in the Forum are lot of guy‘s they can help you or have parts for reworking or even a used spare Engine for the in between.

to rework that Engine under timestress is not a good idea

 

 

 

 

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pacer

IMHO, that engine is so badly worn it will cost a small fortune to rebuild (IF? it is not too far out of specs!) Personally I wouldnt even consider trying to rebuild with that much damage.

 

Start searching for another engine and ask the guys here to see what other engines might cross over and fit, there are probably others that will work -- like maybe a nice Kohler:thumbs2:

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bc.gold
On 7/31/2020 at 5:12 PM, Tractorhead said:

Your cylindre looks too glossy to me and no crosshatch is seen,

the cylindre seems to have no visible damages, so it could be able to re use if its not out of its Round,

what seems on the Picts is given but the miss of any crosshatch means wear

and caused more in a Oilpump instead of an Engine.

 

the knock you told in combination with that Pict of your cylindrewalls points me closer to an worn out con Rod.

I would rebuild that engine instead of killing it by running further with that status.

 

Pull the piston and look with an inserted Pistonring and a feelergauge if the cylindre is in tolerance.

somwhere did a good description how this beeing made here in the Forum, but i forget who it was.

May you find that Thread with the Search as an guide.

 

if you’re lucky and the Wear is not completely out of tolerance just a new crosshatch,

new Pistonrings and a new or maybe a used connection rod will be the cheapest Deal for a running Engine back again

without any knock.

 

The scuffing on the cylinder wall indicates to me that the piston rings were not properly gaped during the last rebuild. Air cooled engines require more end gap to keep the rings from butting up.

 

Next time I would recommend checking the rod bearing clearance with plastiguage.

 

20200729_203631.jpg

 

 

Edited by bcgold
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Tractorhead
1 hour ago, bcgold said:

 

The scuffing on the cylinder wall indicates to me that the piston rings were not properly gaped during the last rebuild. Air cooled engines require more end gap to keep the rings from butting up.

 

20200729_203631.jpg

 

 

You can be right, but I would not bet on it, it can be a result of a worse gap here in that case i agree,

but can also be a result of running without or with a defect Airfilter in a dusty envoirement.

Both shows an identical result of a scuffing surface in the Cylindre.

 

because of the Engine that occurs after split a general wors maintains 

i be more on a general worse TLC over the Time

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bc.gold
36 minutes ago, Tractorhead said:

 

You can be right, but I would not bet on it, it can be a result of a worse gap here in that case i agree,

but can also be a result of running without or with a defect Airfilter in a dusty envoirement.

Both shows an identical result of a scuffing surface in the Cylindre.

 

because of the Engine that occurs after split a general wors maintains 

i be more on a general worse TLC over the Time

 

The scuffing begins with the oil ring, not from dust.

 

oil1.png

Edited by bcgold

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Tractorhead

In another Pict it seems more a result of contaminated oil or wrong cylindreprep instead of Ringgap,

 

 

02451BBC-72AA-40DF-9C13-5152AAADD1D8.jpeg.3a9e31e681a2797fee670f93b20524d6.jpeg

 

So based on that pict i doubt, because the Oilring doesn‘t go that deep into Crankcase while Engine runs,

so the scruffs are also aside the Piston deeper than any ring can come while running.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Tractorhead
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Howie

Those oversize pistons are not the easiest  part to find. And the undersize

rods not much better. Had to find some two years ago. Bought a .020 and a

.030 piston used the .030. Think the rod was .020.

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ArturHawk

Thanks for the responses. The starts aligned and I got a new engine for a steal (off a raider 10 with a working ignition!). I put it in last night (not forgetting to wire the new ignition backwards and frying it while hooking it up :angry-cussingblack:) and the tractor runs! Gave the whole tractor a good cleaning (and a new drive belt) while I had everything torn a part so it looks great again. 

 

Now I've got time to work on this engine. From the sound of it, if the engine CAN be saved, I need to redo basically everything.

 

I am having trouble finding a manual for the HH100-115095B engine series. Seems like Tecumseh made a lot of versions of this engine. Is it ok to use a similar engine parts lists to look up part numbers?

 

Also, I just wanted to add that while I am the one who ran this engine into the ground, I just got it 2 months ago when it wouldn't even turn over. I don't plan on having the same fate fall on this new engine or the old one (if it can be rebuilt).

Edited by ArturHawk
forgot a digit in engine #
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oliver2-44
1 minute ago, ArturHawk said:

Also, I just wanted to add that while I am the one who ran this engine into the ground, I just got it 2 months ago when it wouldn't even turn over. I don't plan on having the same fate fall on this new engine or the old one (if it can be rebuilt).

 

From all the wear in that engine, it was on it's last leg when you got it.:angry-screaming:

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Tractorhead

Sounds good Artur,

congrats to the new Engine.

 

I would suggest do immediately a Oilchange in the exchanged Engine, independently of the Oil what is in now

and even a new Airfilter, so give it a good start in it‘s next life with a regular Service.

 

 

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pacer
1 minute ago, Tractorhead said:

Oilchange in the exchanged Engine, independently of the Oil what is in now

and even a new Airfilter, so give it a good start in it‘s next life with a regular Service.

 

 

Excellent advice! Start off knowing what is in it and when you put it in and ck it regularly - it may or not be an oil burner, by changing it and knowing when/what with/date, etc you can get a feel for the condition of it ........ and, hopefully avoid another disaster.

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ArturHawk

I bought a new air filter and spark plug for the old engine. Moved them over to the new one when I replaced it.

 

Oil looked decent so I wasn't going to change it, but I'll take your guy's advice when I get home.

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oliver2-44

If you already have the new engine mounted, run it to warm up the existing oil and stir up any sludge.  Then change it giving it plenty of time to drain and drip out. 

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ArturHawk

Mowed half the lawn, then drained the old oil. Once the new oil was in, I finished the lawn and started moving dirt to fill in some divots.

 

20200804_185126.jpg.d7e0b9fc72f6367495f41fddd361abc3.jpg

 

Life is good.

 

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R Scheer

There's a calendar shot!

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tom2p
On 8/2/2020 at 9:28 AM, pacer said:

IMHO, that engine is so badly worn it will cost a small fortune to rebuild (IF? it is not too far out of specs!) Personally I wouldnt even consider trying to rebuild with that much damage.

 

Start searching for another engine and ask the guys here to see what other engines might cross over and fit, there are probably others that will work -- like maybe a nice Kohler:thumbs2:



^^^^
this 

 

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