Transmission Filter Screen Damaged-d180

[tommyg 152]

When removing my old hydro motor on my d180 in order to replace it with a newly overhauled one, I was met with a badly damaged filter screen. I have no idea how this happened. I looks like it got caught in a gear or something. What I don't know is how long it's been this way or if there is any more material inside the tranny. I'm assuming any damage that could have been done has already been done. I don't even want to think about having to tear the transmission apart to find any pieces.

What I do need to know though, is if anyone has one of these lying around or if they know of another WH model that may have used this same screen. Perhaps it's still available. I know Toro has discontinued this one in particular. Any other ideas for a replacement? Maybe another tractor brand altogether or was this proprietary? Do you think I need to bother with replacing it? I'm dead in the water with this project until I can figure this out.

[racinfool40 202]

I'm Pretty sure all the substrand Hydro's had this inside the trans..so if any one has one they have robbed parts from they might still be laying around..I had a NOS one but sold it to another member awhile back..but Most of the hydro's I have parted out looked similar to yours...My Advice would be to split the trans and clean all the metal fragements out of it..I hate to see you ruin an overhauled hydro motor..I can about guarantee there is metal inside the tranny case and splitting the hydro rear ends is pretty easy..Not to many parts inside compared to the shifter tranny's and you could also check your parking Pawl..

MIKE

[coldone 35]

I am still trying to figure out how it got chewed up. I think you should split the rearend and see if anything is broken inside it.

[tommyg 152]

I was afraid you guys were going to suggest that. I guess in the back of my mind, though, I have to agree. I can't be sure, but I think the back of that screen is supposed to look like the front. What worries me is that the end flange doesn't exist on it anymore. Which can only mean it's inside the tranny.

[jdog_kustoms 82]

or it copuld be someone tried to pull it out when they had the rear open and still had the hydro motor still bolted on i do have a couple of these id sell just pm me and let me know if i can help

[tommyg 152]

PM sent, thanks! I suppose anything is possible as to the cause. That one end just looks like it was ripped off, chewed up and spit out! I'm wondering, though... That's pretty soft aluminum, softer than anything inside that case. I was thinking of straining the oil that came out after removing the motor looking for any remaining evidence, then pouring it in and kind of flushing it out once or twice, straining each time. If nothing peculiar comes out, you think it's necessary to tear the whole thing apart?

[JamesBe1 80]

I am still trying to figure out how it got chewed up. I think you should split the rearend and see if anything is broken inside it.

Yeah, I have been pondering that myself. I think perhaps the end with the rubber gasket collapsed inward, and it was no longer held in place. It then fell inward into the gear case where it got caught up between two or more gears. That's my theory anyway.

Tommy, sorry to say this but given the way the flow is set up in these systems, metal bits could have been sucked up into the system and flowed through the pump and back. I would suggest taking the filter off and cutting it open to see if there are any bits of metal in it. It's really just an exercise in confirming the worst case, as not finding any doesn't guarantee there aren't bits of the screen in the pump. But if you do find metal in it, then that means that bits of the screen have made it through the pump, through the motor, and back through the return line and got stopped at the filter.

What do do about it is the real question. Don't know how much effort should be put into getting any metal bits out. Were it me, I would resign myself to opening up the trans and cleaning the heck out of it. Also, since you have the old motor off of it, I would open that up straight away and look for metal fragments (just to help you gage how bad it may be).

At least when you are through this, you are going to have learned a lot (the rest of us too), and hopefully have a strong running machine.

[tommyg 152]

I am still trying to figure out how it got chewed up. I think you should split the rearend and see if anything is broken inside it.

What do do about it is the real question. Don't know how much effort should be put into getting any metal bits out. Were it me, I would resign myself to opening up the trans and cleaning the heck out of it. Also, since you have the old motor off of it, I would open that up straight away and look for metal fragments (just to help you gage how bad it may be).

One of the first things I did after getting the tractor was change out the filter. So if I were to find anything, it was likely in the filter that I replaced (which happened to be an automotive type FRAM filter if that matters.) and I know you guys are right about opening it up. I was feeling really good about tackling the motor and valve plate and the result that I don't want to screw up something else in the process. I keep imagining all the gears falling out on my garage floor. I think I'd start to cry.

It sounds like jdog has a filter screen replacement, so that's the good news! I wonder if I got in there with one of those illuminated cameras that allow you to look inside walls and such, if I could make a determination without tearing everything apart. Just a thought.

[coldone 35]

The motor is harder to take apart than the rearend.

You and i are basically in the same boat. My rearend was busted up and that lead to a bad pump and motor. I tackled the rearend and then I found out the motor and pump were shot. So I tackled the motor. Before tackling the motor my d would not move and the oil heated up quickly. Now after i did the motor I can use it, but it is limited. The pump still has problems and i dont want to tackle it right now. I can mow my yard with the D200, after about an hour the oil is too hot and thin to do much with it. It meets my needs for now. I know i am tacking a chance on messing up the pump and motor more by doing this but I am willing to risk it. I plan on pulling the pump and motor this winter and going through both of them this time. I might even try the charge pump too (its part of the pump).

I dont know what your situation is or the plans you have for your D, but if you are willing to accept that you are going to have to go through the pump later anyway and you will have to go through the motor again, i say use it a little. Keep the use limited and give it a try.

In reality, you are going to have to go into the pump and rearend anyway. There is no escaping it if you want a good machine that will last. Dont worry we all are here with you and will help you anyway we can. We all have been where you are, saying WTF have i gotten myself into, and we all have helped each other figure it out. You can do this and bring this old Iron horse back into a great condition that will last for years, and still have less money in it than what a new box store GT cost. (They arent real GTs anyway)

[JamesBe1 80]

I am still trying to figure out how it got chewed up. I think you should split the rearend and see if anything is broken inside it.

What do do about it is the real question. Don't know how much effort should be put into getting any metal bits out. Were it me, I would resign myself to opening up the trans and cleaning the heck out of it. Also, since you have the old motor off of it, I would open that up straight away and look for metal fragments (just to help you gage how bad it may be).

One of the first things I did after getting the tractor was change out the filter. So if I were to find anything, it was likely in the filter that I replaced (which happened to be an automotive type FRAM filter if that matters.) and I know you guys are right about opening it up. I was feeling really good about tackling the motor and valve plate and the result that I don't want to screw up something else in the process. I keep imagining all the gears falling out on my garage floor. I think I'd start to cry.

It sounds like jdog has a filter screen replacement, so that's the good news! I wonder if I got in there with one of those illuminated cameras that allow you to look inside walls and such, if I could make a determination without tearing everything apart. Just a thought.

I understand how scary it is to contemplate opening up the trans. The good news is that it is comparatively easy to take it off of the tractor and put it on the bench. Also, there aren't that many gears inside of it to worry about (you can look in the hole where the motor bolts on and see that).

I remember going through the same agony when I had to open the 8-sp trans on my c-120 (lots of gears there). I was happily surprised that it was not that bad at all. In my case, I had no choice about opening it up as the axle fell out of the shaft. It would seem that you are pretty close to the 'have no choice' situation too. But then again, you could choose to gamble, but I think that most of us here would agree that would be a bad bet.

Kinda curious, when opening up the trans, is there a definate correct orientation that would put a certain side up so that it comes apart without things falling out? Anybody have an opinion?

Couple of things to consider - you might want to pick up an axle seal or two just in case. Do you have to pull the case all the way off of the axle to get in to clean it out? I'm guessing you do - then you will have to pull the wheel hubs off. I hear that can be kinda challenging. Make sure there are no burs on the axles that might damage the axle seals (that's why I suggest a spare seal) as you slide them off.

Take lots of pics of the process - dummies like me might learn somethin ;)

[pfrederi 17,147]

I wonder where the magnet got off to. Should be on the end of teh screen

[tommyg 152]

I wonder where the magnet got off to. Should be on the end of teh screen

There's a magnet?

[JamesBe1 80]

I wonder where the magnet got off to. Should be on the end of teh screen

There's a magnet?

Exactly what I said too!

[Trouty56 565]

I wonder where the magnet got off to. Should be on the end of teh screen

There's a magnet?

Exactly what I said too!

It is probably on the side of a gear in the tranny or, by the look of that screen, on all the gears. lol

[1maidenfan 201]

There should be a magnet on the end of the filter, atleast thats how mine is.

[tommyg 152]

I betcha it's stuck on the side of the casing somewhere. Likely to stay put, but who wants to take that chance. BTW, thank you to jdog for shipping me out a "new" screen. I now see what those things are supposed to look like!

[tommyg 152]

Well, I sort of cracked open the transmission to see if there was any debris inside and possibly the other end of the screen.

First of all, in case you were wondering, while it's easy to pull the tranny, the hubs must be removed in order to separate it completely. There's no getting around it. I put on the gear puller and to my amazement, it came all the way off without much difficulty at all! The only thing I did different than my first attempt was to drill a small pilot hole in the end of the axle. This kept the point from wandering and kept everything pulling in perfect alignment.

I separated the halves about 6" and voila! Looky what I found! The other end to the screen. It was sitting behind that huge main drive gear on the bottom of the casing on the side of the filter. My finger also found some debris from the shredded screen. I need to pull it the rest of the way apart so I can verify that I've got it all cleaned out, but man am I glad I tore it apart. It could have very easily entered the motor or pump and did some damage.

One last issue though, is that to fully separate the halves, I've got the keyway stuck in the shaft. I believe it's kind of a half moon shape. Any thoughts on how to remove it? I plan on replacing these seals now that I have it apart this far. Plus, in order to put in a new gasket, I've got to get it apart all the way. I thought of drilling it out. I've tried tapping it out with a screwdriver, but it's in there tight.

[JamesBe1 80]

Very nice work Tommy. I guess you now graduate to expert status around here.

I am glad to see that you got the hubs off easily. I dread taking them off of my other D when I get around to restoring it. Maybe I'll get lucky.

The key is another story. You are right in that it is a typical half-moon type. I've had them stuck before, and have always been able to get them out with a screwdriver and a hammer. Swearing at it a lot seems to help for some reason. If there is a trick to it, maybe some of the other members can share it. Other than that, I would suggest soaking it for at least overnight in penetrating fluid and maybe heating the axle from the opposite side with a torch.

BTW, if you can get enough of a bite, you might try using the hammer and screwdriver from the outside hitting it inwards. Also, you might try putting the screwdriver on either end of the key and alternating back and forth between the two ends. Maybe one side or the other will start it moving. Once you get it moving, it's just a matter of time till it comes out all the way.

[Trouty56 565]

You may want to try drilling a little. Then punch the sides in some. That may loosen it up so you can pry it out with a punch.

[tommyg 152]

You may want to try drilling a little. Then punch the sides in some. That may loosen it up so you can pry it out with a punch.

I thing I'm going to try a few approaches that includes drilling, penetrating oil and perhaps even a little heat.

Swearing at it a lot seems to help for some reason.

I'll save this for last! :*****:

[pfrederi 17,147]

Usually you can put a chisel aginst one end to try to pry it up alternating with a punch trying to drive the other end down. If it is really recalcitrant a dremel with a cut off wheel and make a wide slice lengthwise in the middle of the key then use a shrp chisel to collapse teh sides into the slot.

[tommyg 152]

Got it! It wasn't pretty. Used a penetrating oil then ended up drilling it out. That was one stubborn keyway! Worked on it for over an hour!

So, the transmission is apart, the screen end piece retrieved, the case cleaned out. Now I have to replace the axle seal. Any thoughts on how to do this? It looks like there is a roller bearing at the end of the shaft. That's not part of the seal assembly is it? I don't want to go any further until I know exactly what I'm doing for fear of damaging something.

[JamesBe1 80]

Congrats!

The rest is relatively easy. If you have the new seal, make sure it is going to fit before you remove the old one. Just hold it up next to the old one, and it should be obvious. Use a hammer and screwdriver to remove the old seal. Don't worry about mangling it, just don't mar the case where the new seal will sit. It helps a lot if you have a seal pick set. Without that, you can use screwdrivers to work the old one out. It doesn't matter if it comes out in pieces.

Important - make sure the axle is free of burs before you put it back together or it might cut the new seal and ruin it.

Normally, I have the case back together before I install the new seal. I don't know if it makes a difference if you have the axle through it or not. I don't think so, but it does help to align it for installation.

Lubricate the new seal and use a piece of pipe of the same diameter to tap the new one into place.

That's it, your done.

[tommyg 152]

Great! That's what's was hoping to hear. I'm really good at mangling things when I remove them. I'll pull the other hub tonight then order a couple seals in the morning. By the time my gasket comes in for the motor and I fab a new one for the transmission, the seals should be here. Thanks for the info. By the way, it seems that the best way to open that transmission is just in the normal position. The gears may hang on one side or the other, but nothing really falls out. Pretty simple.

[wheeledhorseman 573]

:thumbs: Great progress and photos Tom!

Very nice work Tommy. I guess you now graduate to expert status around here.

Second that!

Not sure if all trannies had them but don't forget to check the parking brake pawl before you close it up.

Andy