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WheelHorse520H

416 runs then skips and dies

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WheelHorse520H

Okay, I think I know the two possible problems but I want to see if anyone ran into this before and had an easy fix. My 416 (I forget what year, it's and early 90s) starts and runs fine, but when I raise it off idle it skips and sometimes keeps going and sometimes dies. I think it's either a carb issue or losing spark (probably the coil or control module behind the flywheel)

Thoughts?

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Evan L
3 hours ago, WheelHorse520H said:

Okay, I think I know the two possible problems but I want to see if anyone ran into this before and had an easy fix. My 416 (I forget what year, it's and early 90s) starts and runs fine, but when I raise it off idle it skips and sometimes keeps going and sometimes dies. I think it's either a carb issue or losing spark (probably the coil or control module behind the flywheel)

Thoughts?

is it possible that your coil is getting worn out? did this problem just start happening or did it slowly start to happen?

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WheelHorse520H

@Evan L it skipped before but always recovered, it was usually on rough terrain so I assumed it was just air in a fuel line as it sloshed in the tank. It started to happen when I'd move the motion lever to full forward at a low rpm so I thought it was just the load. I have a spare coil I can drop in to see if it fixes it. When it backfired yesterday I could see a white mist of fuel as it came out of the muffler.

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Tuneup

The backfire might be a tell. Typical of an open capacitor.

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lynnmor

Clean the carburetor.

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953 nut

:twocents-02cents:       Fuel related in my opinion. This is a remidy I have used a few times with good results. Get a can of your favorite fuel treatment9 SeaFoam is my go-to). Put about four times the amount called for in your gasoline and put some in a spray bottle. With the engine running near full throttle give a couple of squirts directly in the carburetor air inlet, let the engine recover RPMs and repeat a few times.

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WheelHorse520H
16 hours ago, Tuneup said:

The backfire might be a tell. Typical of an open capacitor.

I think it is, I ran it yesterday with a spark tester on it and a known good coil and I could see the spark cut out every few revolutions. I'll rob one off my 520 and see if that fixes it.

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Evan L
22 hours ago, WheelHorse520H said:

@Evan L it skipped before but always recovered, it was usually on rough terrain so I assumed it was just air in a fuel line as it sloshed in the tank. It started to happen when I'd move the motion lever to full forward at a low rpm so I thought it was just the load. I have a spare coil I can drop in to see if it fixes it. When it backfired yesterday I could see a white mist of fuel as it came out of the muffler.

you could also check if theres a safety somewhere or a fuse going bad? Don't really know much about 416s myself

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WheelHorse520H
3 minutes ago, Evan L said:

you could also check if theres a safety somewhere or a fuse going bad? Don't really know much about 416s myself

I think it was when there was a lot of load on the engine and it slowed it down enough that missing spark now and then would make it seem like a fuel issue. The area I was in has a lot of ruts and it was at the bottom trying to get out

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WheelHorse520H

I have some sad news...today I was letting it idle while watching the spark tester to see if it was still skipping after I put in a good condenser (and it was still skipping) but I also heard a little knocking. I think I have some rod knock. Is there anyway to tell if that's what it is, could it just be a symptom of the misfire? Could this be related to the misfire?

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Sailman

This could be way off base so take with a grain of salt. Do you see any black spots around the head gasket area? I bought a C-120 once that the owner honestly said " I think it may have a bad engine". It would start and run but sounded like a rod knocking and just awful erratic running. Saw the black "sign" around the head gasket, took advice from folks here to pull the head, resurface and replace the head gasket. Still runs like a champ to this day!

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lynnmor
6 hours ago, WheelHorse520H said:

. I think I have some rod knock. Is there anyway to tell if that's what it is

 

Remove the spark plugs, then grasp the engine pulley behind the PTO.  Rotate the engine by hand stopping and reversing direction at multiple locations to listen and feel for looseness from a mechanical issue.

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Lagersolut

Is this a Kohler K341 ?  - Mine had a miss - it was faint but there -drove me nuts - from the time I restored it 3 years ago - new points - plug wire - plug  . intermittent no rhyme or reason . Long story short I found it 2 months ago- check your wiring harness at the clamps/guides behind the engine - my wire coming from the ignition switch to the coil was rubbed through at the clamp - had a shiny spot about as big as a pencil point - installed new wire from points to coil and new from ignition. hasn't missed a beat since

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peter lena

@Lagersolut  agree on that possibility ,early on electrical issues drove me nuts . today , I  go over every inch / connection / fuse relay , switch grounding , wire chafing , due to movement issues . trust nothing , go right back to the start and verify as you go . things that proved out , were installed in all my units , that added ground wire from battery to electrical rectifier , makes them snap to attention . counting on engine cooling tins to hold a ground , is easily corrected . make it solid , pete

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WheelHorse520H

@Sailman I will check that out, I haven't heard of that before but that certainly would cause a noise

@lynnmor thank you, I was going to ask how I could confirm this, I'll try that and report back with my findings.

@Lagersolut it's the Onan P216 but I certainly will check the electrical. Let's just say it's far from perfect lol

@peter lenaI'm just about at that point. I'm ready to go over everything to solve this. I just put my mower deck on and just before I got the engine up to speed this all started

 

Thank you to everyone for all your help, I certainly have a to do list to get cracking on

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953 nut
20 hours ago, WheelHorse520H said:

I have some sad news...today I was letting it idle while watching the spark tester to see if it was still skipping after I put in a good condenser (and it was still skipping) but I also heard a little knocking. I think I have some rod knock. Is there anyway to tell if that's what it is, could it just be a symptom of the misfire? Could this be related to the misfire?

Onans are known to have a problem with valve seats coming loose.    Do a search on here or start a new thread seeking information on Onan valve seats.

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WheelHorse520H
On 5/21/2023 at 7:04 AM, 953 nut said:

Onans are known to have a problem with valve seats coming loose.    Do a search on here or start a new thread seeking information on Onan valve seats.

I knew that was a common problem but forgot to even check that. The knock when I did what @lynnmorsaid seemed to be at TDC as the crank would start to go back down. Not 100% sure but it sounded worse on the very front of the engine. And there seemed to be quite a bit of play in the crank.

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lynnmor
1 minute ago, WheelHorse520H said:

I knew that was a common problem but forgot to even check that. The knock when I did what @lynnmorsaid seemed to be at TDC as the crank would start to go back down. Not 100% sure but it sounded worse on the very front of the engine. And there seemed to be quite a bit of play in the crank.

A small amount of play is normal at TDC, but it sounds like yours is excessive.  The front cylinder head is rather easy to pull, so you might want to explore before there is more damage.  The rear head isn’t real tough if you want to dig deeper.  You should use new gaskets when reassembling.

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WheelHorse520H
1 hour ago, lynnmor said:

A small amount of play is normal at TDC, but it sounds like yours is excessive.  The front cylinder head is rather easy to pull, so you might want to explore before there is more damage.  The rear head isn’t real tough if you want to dig deeper.  You should use new gaskets when reassembling.

It felt like a significant amount of play. I'll compare it with my 520 and see if it's about right. I have had the heads off my 520 and they weren't too difficult to remove. Thanks for the advice 

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