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Working three horses with Sundstrand hydros and knowing that the day would surely one day come when I’d need to fix one of them I acquired a ‘for spares or repairs’ C-121 auto early this year
 
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Described as having an engine that was reluctant to start but will move forwards and backwards I found that whilst it was strong in both directions the hydro takes a while to jump into action once you’ve finally managed to get the engine going. It’s a fault that’s appeared on the forum before and had clearly existed on this tractor for many years judging by the way the keyways on the hubs and axles had been totally destroyed by the jolting action, so much so in fact that a bolt through the axle and hub had been added on one side to transfer drive and keep the hub on!  :scared-eek:
 
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For the price I paid, it would provide an ideal opportunity to have a go at the disassembly and re-assembly of a hydro pump and motor without putting any of my fleet at risk. A nice little ‘no pressure’ learning exercise for the winter was in the offing. Seemed like a good scheme until only a few weeks later the hydro on my D-200 died, it had been working hard with no warning signs or sounds when it failed.
 
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 Guessing that the symptoms i.e. no motion and no implement lift function could mean the splines on the pump drive had stripped (though I’ve learnt by now not to try second guessing Sundstrand faults) there was no option but to move the three point and ram etc across to my other D-200 for the season and the winter project now needed a bit of re-thinking.  
 
If I could cure the fault on the C-121 transmission and it was in otherwise good order I could perhaps use the motor from it for the D but there would be a problem with the pump in that the motion control shaft is on the opposite side for a D series resulting in needing to use some parts from the original D series pump to put together a suitable arrangement. What I really needed was a good pump with motion control shaft available on the correct side but here in the UK D series tractors rarely come up for sale, good hydros from one being parted out, never to my knowledge!  :confusion-scratchheadblue:
 
Lady Luck smiled on me in September when a complete C-161 transaxle with believed to be good hydro appeared on a well known site and I managed to grab it for the starting bid price :) . In terms of the hydro, it’s a Sundstrand 90-1173, same as used on the later D series, and has a ‘universal’ motion control shaft which protrudes from either side of the pump casing – :woohoo:  
The tractor had been parted as the engine was beyond repair so there was a good chance the hydro was indeed good but that would need testing. To do this has meant putting the transmission onto the C-121, getting the engine to start and testing it out thoroughly. 
 
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It went well in both directions then the real test of confronting an immoveable object with it.
 
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Even with weight on the seat, the rear tyres continued to excavate the surface of the drive so I guess the hydro can be considered to be good to use. It appears then that I have enough bits to stand a reasonable chance of getting the D-200 going again using the pump and motor from this transmission. It also means that I’ll be left with a good transaxle which I could use with the pump and motor unit from the C-121 and maybe that tractor is worth saving after all rather than being parted. If I can manage all of this then finally I get my chance with the old D pump and motor to have a go at disassembly and inspection etc.
 
Trying to put all of this into a logical order, I’m going to take the head off the engine to hopefull find out what's up with it while the C-121 still has a good tranny attached and, while the 'jolting' tranny is off, I'll check out the acceleration valves as a first step. I don’t have the time to be working on the project every day at the moment but I’ll keep you posted on progress and I’ll more than likely be needing to pick the brains of those of you with knowledge and experience. Hints, tips and advice always welcome.  :thumbs:
 
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So...I never really followed through with a thought I had about the pumps in the C series and the D series....that the the casing could he flipped 180 and the cam reversed.....you probably already investigated this.

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That's a very good thought Bob and one that I didn't consider. Looking at the orientation of the holes round the motion control shaft these are rotated slightly clockwise with respect to the main axis i.e. pump shaft whichever side you look at so your idea of flipping the case through 180 would probably work. Looking for simple solutions my brain went for using the pump casing from the old D pump.

 

I had a niggling thought though about another potential issue though in that the C-121 did not have a ram for the implement lift connected to it. The ports have blanking plugs that could be removed but did all Sundstrands have the implement relief valve fitted - the manual refers to this as 'optional'.At the end of the day I'm relieved that I'll be using the pump and motor from a C-161 with motion control shaft available on the D side and that has been used with a ram connected to it so certainly has the internal implement relief valve.

 

Andy

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Andy...the only thing I am not sure of is this....the cam lever is pointed up in both applications.....in the D series I believe the cam is pushed toward the front of the pump for forward motion.....if that is the case then in a C series the cam would have to be pushed towards the rear of the pump for forward....  This is what I am not sure of because each time I have one open to look I forget to check.....(the age thing).....

 

My guess is that you would have to take the cone/spring assemblies from the D pump and install in the 121 pump for ram use.....guess the 161 already has these installed....but I don't know exactly what is needed for lift control....

Edited by Trouty56
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Hey Andy, good to have you back with a techy post! :thumbs:

I reckon they should all have the relief valve, even without implement lift. I would imagine it's always wise to protect the charge pump, should someone try drive through an immoveable object... :hide:

Edited by meadowfield
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Bob - forgetfulness and the age thing - tell me about it!  :confusion-confused:

I'll try and remember to take a look re the cam and forward motion as it will only take a moment with the current C-121 with C-161 tranny arrangement.

 

Mark - it's good to be back, my problem is one of time during the summer months. 

 

The C-121 appears to have been assembled during the cross over period from pawl type parking brake to band brake system. The transaxle has a pawl which still works but the braking linkages and mechanism fitted could also be used with a band brake system so it was possible to connect up the tranny from the later C-161 system including the brake system without mods. Also interesting that when the C-121 was assembled the hydro motors were already being supplied with the brake drum present even though the transaxles (old stock being used up I guess) had the pawl system. 

 

Which brings me to another potential issue at the back of my mind. The D-200 I'm hopefully repairing has pawl brake and plain hydro motor (no band brake drum), the pump from the C-161 that I'll be using has the drum and I'm just wondering if it will leave enough clearance for me to retain the turning brakes. Anyone with a D out there know the answer? Visually it looks as though the answer may be no which could explain why the option of disc turning brakes was dropped on the later Ds.

 

Andy

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It could be the pressure relief keeper that broke and its just dumping pressure its NLA its inside the transmission my dads D160 did it and his buddy made him a new one.

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Thanks for that Desko, it's confirmation that there are a number of different issues that can account for sudden loss of all pressure which is why I mentioned not trying to second guess the exact cause from the symptoms when it comes to a Sundstrand. I'm certainly no expert but I've followed the work of others with much interest and seen photos of things like a broken retainer ring in the motor, stripped splines on the pump drive shaft etc. I've also come to realize that disassembly and inspection is the only course in most cases. 

 

My reason for going the swap out route is that the hydro on the D-200 already had another issue that I didn't ever get to solving i.e very weak or sometimes no reverse unless given a helping push. I discovered that the spring between the acceleration valves had broken so replaced it but it made little if any difference. The spring on the reverse check valve was intact but swapping it out just to be sure again didn't solve anything either. The tractor could not be pushed with the tow valve shut so guessed that the spirolock retaining ring etc in the motor was unlikely to be the culprit, even tried removing the motion control assembly so that reverse at the equivalent to full forward speed could be applied via the swash plate to no effect. Oh and I also tried isolating the damper valves that are mounted behind the rear wheel  so gave up at that point and have lived with a D that was reluctant to go backwards ever since as it was perfectly good and strong going forward and therefore disassembly of the pump and motor could wait till there was a major failure i.e. till now.

 

Andy

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It's been four months now since I got out to the shop! First my daughter and her partner bought their first house which needed decorating throughout to make it 'habitable' as she put it and there went the first month of my time. Daughters tend to be high maintenance like that! Then my father needed major surgery and had his colon removed complete. At age 94 recovery was always going to be a long-shot but he went for it anyway but lost the battle a couple of weeks ago.

 

Any way, at last it's on with the show and I got out there today.- no where was I?

 

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Having removed the transaxle from the C-121 it was time to separate the power unit from the rest of the tranny which I'll keep for spares. 

 

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The pump and motor had worked strongly in each direction but it had a fault that comes up on the forum from time to time. When you start up after it has stood for a while with the engine off then it takes time for the drive to engage when restarted next time. So now to find out why - first stop, pull the acceleration valves.

 

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The first valve looked ok, but whats this?

 

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:omg:  Yes, this is exactly how it came out - I didn't disassemble it !!!

 

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How the motor was able to go forwards and backwards is a mystery but the metering plug, having become detached, had been well and truly 'mullered' and the ball bearing spring destroyed also.

 

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As I'm intending to replace the motor and pump on the dead D=200 I decided to borrow the acceleration valves from that. In the process discovered that during the months it has been standing, oil in the pump at the front had all apparently discharged back to the transaxle causing it to overflow.

 

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At least on the bright side it tends to indicate that the total failure of the pump i.e. no drive and no hitch lift could well be internal rather than a drive spline issue - have to wait and see on that one.

 

I'm hoping to swap out the known good and tested pump/motor unit currently on the C-121 for this one over the weekend. If it works then great, if not it's a job for later as I need to crack on and get the D going again.

 

Andy

Edited by wheeledhorseman

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Sorry about your father. He may have been older but it is still hard to take.

 

What attacked your acceleration valve...Jaws???

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Andy,

 

glad you are back - sorry to hear about your father.  :(

 

 

 

I'd say they were pretty butchered Andy!  maybe what the D is like inside too?

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Have posted the full set of pics now - out of practice and pressed the publish button by mistake too soon.

 

The metering valve cap seems to have got munched between the valve body and the end cap on the tranny case. Either that or aliens attacked it. Hmm where did the bits go - forgot to say that they were attached to the wire gauze filter making it difficult to extract from the tranny case.

 

Looking at the thread I'd say it looks as if the thread on the body of the valve stripped - over-tightened or cross threaded perhaps but that valve is certainly toast!

 

Andy

Edited by wheeledhorseman

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Andy:  I have some acceleration valves in parts motors if you ever need some.  I am not sure why your pump would have drained down and overflowed teh tranny.  My D sits for extended periods and I haven't seen that issue...YET

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Agreed, it is just another Sundstrand mystery. The tractor was laid up for the summer with no overflow. I did take off the 3-point lift ram to put on the other D and emptied it back into the system first so the level in the tranny would have gone up a bit. Possibly I also introduced some air into the system. The tractor was moved about over the summer when it was in the way but with the push valve open and I did run it up a couple of times to try and see if the pump shaft was turning or not. Some oil may also have drained back as a result of whatever went wrong in the pump.

 

There was no overflow when I last looked in early November but now there is. Best guess is that a raised oil level, air in the system, and temperature changes with recent warmer weather may have conspired to create one of those 'gloops' you can get when filling one of these where air trying to escape makes oil suddenly erupt out of the filler tube. Just a guess though.

 

Thanks for the offer re valves which I'll let you know if I need to take up. In a way I've been sidetracked as a result of today's little discovery into wondering if the damaged valve is all that is wrong with the original pump / motor unit from the C-121. If it is then it makes sense to try it out as there's a good transaxle on it at the moment which I'm about to rescue the pump and motor from for the D.

 

Andy

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Well, I've managed to find a few hours over the last couple of weeks and here's the progress and a couple of questions for those who've been and done all this stuff before.

 

I checked the housings where the acceleration valves sit and despite the state of the end cap to one of the valves there was no visible corresponding damage on the housings or big end caps. I did however discover something I'd missed at first i.e. the acceleration valves had been switched (big flat for little flat) so someone had been in here before me. I reckon now that the damage was done by humankind with the valve out of the motor. The bits I found on the mesh filter were not metal but soft grot possibly introduced via the filler tube during an oil change.

 

Another puzzle and hence the first of my questions concerns the mesh filter. The one I removed from the scrap transmission had nothing to seal it into its housing in the transaxle case other than the gasket between the case and the motor. The filter on the C-161 transmission that's acting as donor for the D-200 had a rubber gasket that sits over the end of the mesh filter between the filter and the motor gasket. I'm darned if I can see this rubber gasket on the exploded schematics so.....

 

QUESTION: Were these a later feature or was it that there should have been one on the scrap C-121 transmission but someone has opened it up before me and forgotten to include it on reassembly? Is it meant to be a separate part or was it originally glued to the filter?

 

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With good acceleration valves taken from the D-200 and a rubber gasket on the mesh filter the hydro was fitted back onto the good ex C-161 transaxle and possibly the C-121 would live again rather than be parted. New filter and refilled with oil I'd loved to have tested it but the engine refused to start - it has low compression and a quick look-see with the head off didn't reveal much so it will have to wait as i need to crack on with the main project.

 

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The good pump and motor needed a bit of work in preparation so for the time being I've mounted it onto the scrap transaxle to keep the internals clean. It has  the brake drum assembly fitted  to later models which has to come off including the drum otherwise there won't be the clearance required to retain the steering brakes on the D. Now I know why these were dropped as an option for later D series which had the drum brake.

 

Another part to be changed is the push valve which had a square shank to be operated with a wrench on the C-161 rather than the slotted round shaft needed for the D. Only problem was that it was seized solid. So much so that even after leaving to soak in penetrating fluid it was obvious that a wrench was simply going to round off the flats on the shaft.

 

Quite a bit of head scratching later and idea came to mind to use (or abuse) a toolmakers clamp.

 

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With the clamp attached and some persuasive hammering the valve began to budge and finally come out. The threads had got pretty rusty and seized though lack of use. I think I'd better wind the valves out of my other hydros to check their condition as a bit of preventative maintenance probably wouldn't go amiss to prevent it happening to them also.

 

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The hood and pretty much the whole of the front of the tractor has to be removed just to be able to pull the engine forward and away from the hydro pump.

 

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My hope from observation that stripped drive splines were not responsible for the total loss of motion and lift function were confirmed. Phew!! So it's on with the task of removing enough of the body panels to be able to swap out the pump and motor which leads to my next question (for now at least)

 

Accesibility to the bolts that attach the manifold to the pump is not good, particularly as the D has the pto shaft fitted, turning brakes etc. I'm also thinking in terms of reassembly when the O-rings have to be positioned as well. So......

 

Question: Just how much of the D has to be removed to make the job possible? Worst case I guess is right down to removing the long lower panel on the far side as in the photo above but is this really necessary?

 

Thanks in anticipation.

 

Andy

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Andy:  The top side panel and batter holder are all that you should have to remove.  My problems are usually from underneath. You will want a long 5/16" allen socket to get the two allen head bolts out of the manifold. I had pulled my rear PTO shaft when I worked on mine but I think with a universal joint you should be able to do it with out removing the PTO.I have had good success smearing a bit of grease on the Orings and backer rings to keep them in place during reassembly.

 

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A long overdue update.

 

Removing the motor would normally be pretty straight forward but in this case the D-200 has turning brakes and hydraulic dampers so it means removing the skid plate that protects the hoses, then the hoses from the motor, oh, and removing the complete turning brake assembly from the axle.

 

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Behind the motor mounted in the tranny case should be a mesh strainer. In this case I found the strainer was missing.

 

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At first sight it might look like a kind of blank but the strainer I removed from the donor transmission had one that looked the same but with the strainer assembly still attached. Methinks somebody has been into this transmission before me! There was no sign of any debris in the form of mashed up gauze etc in the transmission case so consulted before moving on see 

 

At the other end the hood, grille, tachamatic hitch, PTO belt and pulley and many more bits have to be removed along with cables and linkages to the engine just so that the engine can be unbolted and moved forward to uncouple it from the hydro pump. (You've just gotta love working on a D)

 

Then the battery mounts and some of the side panels need to come off to begin to access the pump itself.

 

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Before dismantling the motion control linkages I thought it prudent to take a photo of how they go for the record.

 

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Now the fun really begins - disconnecting the manifold from the underside of the pump. Three bolts are quite easy despite this tractor having a PTO shaft that gets in the way, the fourth (an internal hex bolt) is a real PITA. I found it impossible to get anything to it except an allen key that had to be cut down because one of the manifold pipes passes directly over it with very little clearance. The nylock nut on the pump side is no more accessible and only an open ended spanner could be used to stop it turning! A second pair of hands were needed and the removal of another side panel.

 

In the end the pump was released but the tractor by now looked pretty devastated. (Sorry about pic quality - poor light and taken on my phone)

 

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Further evidence that this isn't the first time the hydro on this tractor has been dismantled was discovered as follows:

 

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The flexible drive coupling between the engine and pump included a splined washer as described in a Service Bulletin, part of a kit supplied to overcome premature failure of the drive arrangement. To avoid duplication see 

 

The pump has obviously been opened up before and silicon instant gasket (white) has been used in reassembly rather than replacing the gasket.

 

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I seem to recall reading in a thread on the forum somewhere that this is a bad thing as bits of silicon can become detatched inside and can cause havoc with a hydro which might explain the reversing problems I've had with this transmission that I never completely cured and the final total failure.

 

As I'm not replacing the pump with one from another D there's some additional work to do.

 

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Sorry about the pic quality (my phone again). The unions for the hydraulic lift pipework and the oil temp sender are easy to move from one pump to the other and the threaded hole needed for the rear mounting on a D was present but needed cleaning out using a tap.

 

This pump has a square shaft to the push valve rather than the round shaft with screw driver slot. My original thought was to swap the push valves over but they are different internally. The original has a spherical end to the valve, this one has a cone shaped end internally - they're not interchangeable so I'll have to cut a slot in this one.

 

At the other end of the pump there's a bit of work to be done also.

 

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The two holes shown are used to secure the front mounting bracket to the pump on a D. To save a few cents Sundstrand never tapped these out to take bolts as they're not used in the normal pump / motor piggy back arrangement so another little job to do.

 

Andy

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Another day and the good pump and motor combo was finally removed from the scrap transmission case where it's been mounted for some weeks now to keep the internals clean.

 

The first task was to separate the motor from the pump. There are four Allen bolts that hold the two together, two are accessed externally, and two from inside the pump. There's so little access space with one of the internal bolts that a ball ended Allen key is needed to be able to work at a slight angle.

 

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With the motor separated from the pump there was a big sigh of relief from me, not that I'd manged to get the most difficult bolt out and separate the two........

 

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.........but that the holes the two internal bolts pass though were threaded even though there is no need for this on the directly coupled motor - pump combo for a C series.

 

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I was counting on this being the case as the threads are needed for the two larger diameter bolts used to secure the manifold to the pump on the separated system on a D series. The difference can be seen in the photo below.

 

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The top bolt hole in the photo has an O ring and the original internal bolt had a copper washer under its head (its on the bench to the left of the motor) so I guess the oil in the chamber on that side of the pump unit is under pressure. Securing the manifold to the pump on a D with a large bolt here will still benefit from the O ring but these large bolts have plain steel washers - not the best at sealing I would have thought. Where the pump has been removed before, the bolts appear to have had a bit of silicone rtv applied before reassembly.

 

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I can't see an issue with this as its well away from any oil circulating internally but comments welcome.

 

The next step will be to get the mounting brackets, control arm etc mounted on the pump unit but not tomorrow as its General Election day here in the UK voting for a new government and all that.

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Got the pump ready to fit back on the D today. First thing was to cut the threads for the front mounting bracket bolts as this had not been done at the factory as they weren't needed for a C series application.

 

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Then a trial fitting of the front bracket.

 

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It had to come off again so that the side bracket and motion control arm could be attached to the pump. Then with everything in place a final trial fitting of the drive coupling assembly.

 

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Everything seemed good so the coupling was removed and the splines on the pump shaft and drive coupling thoroughly cleaned and degreased. With the splined washer in place Loctite 608 was applied to the pump shaft as per Service Bulletin #305 before final assembly. Note that the bolts that fix the coupling to the engine are in place at this stage.

 

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As the splnes are slightly worn I found it took more than the 'light coat' mentioned in the SB which assumes I guess that a new drive flange is being used. I was careful though to make sure that the Loctite didn't ooze out as the flange slid along the shaft.

 

In view of the slight play that exists I've held the coupling in correct alignment while the Loctite cures by using the bolt and washer that originally held the C-161 drive pulley onto the pump shaft and pretty much decided that I'll leave it there to reduce strain on the Loctite given the play that exists.

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Sorry for the loss of your Dad.

 

Nice thread and I am happy to see that my suspicion of using a C series hydro unit to replace a D series is correct.Taking the pump off the D is always interesting. I think the last time that i did that it only took me about an hour. I already had all the tools in one bucket.

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I put the locktite on mine and let it cure...still seems to be some slop, like you say probably due to used parts.  I haven't the time right now to make the splined washer so I am using your idea of the bolt.  I put shims under the washer to keep the coupling from being pushed back against the mounting bracket. I am toying with the idea of tack welding the washer to the drive coupling (see sloppy yellow paint in the picture).  That would stop the coupling from trying to push too far in on the shaft (replacing the job of the splined washer) while the bolt is holding it from pulling off.  Thoughts????

 

 

 

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Sorry for the loss of your Dad.

 

Nice thread and I am happy to see that my suspicion of using a C series hydro unit to replace a D series is correct.Taking the pump off the D is always interesting. I think the last time that i did that it only took me about an hour. I already had all the tools in one bucket.

 

It was sad to lose dad Britt but major surgery at 94 was always likely to become a one way street for him. Do miss him though.

 

Tackling this project at all required a leap of faith spurred on by the fact that used pumps and motors for a D series in any condition are simply non-existent over here and the cost of shipping heavy items across the pond is prohibitively expensive.

 

Starting a thread on it was also a leap of faith as it could have turned out to be a heroic failure and still could be but then that's how we all learn so what the heck let others see as I go along.

 

 

I put the locktite on mine and let it cure...still seems to be some slop, like you say probably due to used parts.  I haven't the time right now to make the splined washer so I am using your idea of the bolt.  I put shims under the washer to keep the coupling from being pushed back against the mounting bracket. I am toying with the idea of tack welding the washer to the drive coupling (see sloppy yellow paint in the picture).  That would stop the coupling from trying to push too far in on the shaft (replacing the job of the splined washer) while the bolt is holding it from pulling off.  Thoughts????

 

I'm disappointed with the result of using LT 680 as well. The bolt and washer at the front with a splined washer behind the coupling took up all of the side to side / top to bottom wiggle but not the small amount of rotational play. Dismantling and adding some extra Loctite appeared to do the trick but after a day's curing the rotational play was back again.

 

I guess the compound shrinks a little as it cures and the wear gaps are too large for the compound to take up. I can't help wondering if just some heavy grease would have been better alongside the additional bolt and washer in terms of reducing long term wear.

 

I'm not certain that the washer method you're proposing will work for the side to side play - as far as I could see this is eliminated when the washer at the front pinches the coupling against the splined washer at the rear. A case of suck it and see I guess.

 

 

I got a bit more done today.

 

I was beginning to get paranoid about forgetting to cut the screwdriver slot in the push valve before remounting the pump so made it the first job.

 

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Next step was to clean out the engine air intake grille on the flywheel. The tractor hasn't seen a whole lot of hours use in the three years since I restored it but it was already showing the early signs of clogging.

 

post-4509-0-36366700-1431293041_thumb.jp

 

What looks like cobwebs is actually crack willow tree seed - fluffy white stuff that can lie like snow on the ground when conditions are right. I've had to stop mowing and clear the mesh on the C-120 at least once before completing the mow at that time of year when, with lots of these trees, we can be plagued by the stuff for a week or two.

 

Remounting the pump was a lot easier than taking it off helped by the discovery of how useful a ball ended Allen key can be. Hats of to those of you who manage this single handed, I found enlisting the help of a second pair of hands (my son) made it easier than it would otherwise have been.

 

post-4509-0-54556600-1431293496_thumb.jp

 

The area I've highlighted is to show a conundrum I encountered when assembling the brackets to the pump i.e. a gap between the two where they are bolted together (click to enlarge). The front bracket was straight but would have been distorted as the nut and bolt pinched the two together. Couldn't find a reason for this so included a thin washer between the two. If there's an alignment issue when it comes to putting the side panel back I can always remove it.

 

Another potential issue I encountered related to the fact that this pump has a motion shaft protruding from each side.

 

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If I have to lift the front of the pump much as part of the alignment procedure with the engine then it will foul on the side panel. I did think about cutting some of it off while the pump was on the bench but decided aginst on the basis that heat generated by the cutting disc wouldn't do the oil seal a whole lot of good. If there's an issue then I'll have to grind a bit of the side panel away but hopefully it won't be necessary as later replacement pumps for the D series had this double ended motion shaft.

 

Most C series have a single ended shaft which adds another challenge if one of those is being transferred to a D i.e. the motion control shaft has to be somehow moved to the other side of the pump.  Bob T (Trouty56) suggested early on in the thread that flipping the pump casing through 180 might do the trick but the motion lever would still need to be swapped for the D series type.

 

Andy

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Andy;  great work.  I remember that the the Tech Bulletin indicated you mighth have to slot the hole in the end of th mounting bracket to get good alignment.  That would replace the need for your extra washer...I think.

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