1977 C160 Auto... Pieces.

[Mike C160 251]

Greetings,

 

I decided today i would change the oil and filter in the hydro unit. 

 

However upon draining the unit, these pieces fell out. Looks like bearing cages. 

 

Can anyone tell me where these piece might have come from and if this is a serious failure?

 

The tractor moves forwards, backward just fine without any odd noise or leaks.

 

Thanks and Cheers!

 

 

[WHX?? 46,829]

I have no idea Mike but chiming in to see how those came out the drain plug hole. Filter pieces perhaps?

[Mike C160 251]

2 minutes ago, WHX?? said:

I have no idea Mike but chiming in to see how those came out the drain plug hole. Filter pieces perhaps?

 

The second I took the plug out, they fell into the drain pan. So they were right there at the plug. The one piece most certainly is a bearing cage, but from where? 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Mike C160

[squonk 38,976]

No idea. @daveoman1966

[ebinmaine 63,237]

🤔

[cafoose 3,148]

Download these manuals:

 

 

[Mike C160 251]

36 minutes ago, cafoose said:

Download these manuals:

 

 

Could it be the cage from the dreaded 1533 axle bearing?  The pump seems to have great pressure...

[cafoose 3,148]

36 minutes ago, Mike C160 said:

Could it be the cage from the dreaded 1533 axle bearing?

Could possibly be that. Axles should have no up and down or front and back play but can move in and out like 1/16th of an inch. @stevasaurus is our transaxle specialist and may be able to help.

[Mike C160 251]

Just now, cafoose said:

Could possibly be that. Axles should have no up and down or front and back play but can move in and out like 1/16th of an inch. @stevasaurus is our transaxle specialist and may be able to help.

Thanks

 

It would be good to know if its savable before ripping it apart and finding out its toast. I dont relish the thought of trying to get those hubs off only to be stopped by internal carnage. 

 

Can bearings from the pump drop down that far? 

[ebinmaine 63,237]

How much time have you driven the tractor?

Been hot enough to do the test where you tie it to a tree and see if the tires spin?

 

That metal may be part of the drive gear set somewhere and not related to the pump section. 

Maybe you're lucky enough to have the pump section in usable condition while the drive gear section needs repair.  

 

The only real way (that I can see/ is to dismantle and diagnose. 

It's an easy enough transmission to do so. 

That way you'll KNOW where it came from and how to fix.  

 

Being an automatic, the hubs may very well be removable without extreme effort. 

[stevasaurus 22,234]

I have not seen anything like that clamp part in a transmission.  I wonder if it has something to do with holding the dip stick tube??  It is hard to tell about the other piece, but I don't think it is a bearing race.  You would know if it was...bearings would have come out also (needles or ball) and they would have been shooting around inside jamming gears and popping inside.  I'm not sure, but I would think that pieces like that would not be able to get into the transaxle from the pump.  

   One thing is for sure...you have more pieces floating around in the transaxle.  It should be opened and checked before more or any damage is done.  I'm curious to see what @daveoman1966 has to say.  He is the Hydro-King.  

[Mike C160 251]

6 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

How much time have you driven the tractor?

Been hot enough to do the test where you tie it to a tree and see if the tires spin?

 

That metal may be part of the drive gear set somewhere and not related to the pump section. 

Maybe you're lucky enough to have the pump section in usable condition while the drive gear section needs repair.  

 

The only real way (that I can see/ is to dismantle and diagnose. 

It's an easy enough transmission to do so. 

That way you'll KNOW where it came from and how to fix.  

 

Being an automatic, the hubs may very well be removable without extreme effort. 

Hey Eric,

 

Yes, last weekend I drove it for about an hour and a half. It drove great. Plenty of power. And more speed than you can really use. It didnt slow down as it got hot at all. 

 

Yes I hope the hubs come off without a death struggle

 

Cheers and thanks.

[pacer 3,160]

Well, one thing is for sure..... and that is that tranny is gonna HAVE to come out and find what those pieces are (which nobody has yet to identify!) Those pieces being in there cannot in any way be good and are screaming to 'find out what I am!!'

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

we

[Mike C160 251]

3 hours ago, stevasaurus said:

I have not seen anything like that clamp part in a transmission.  I wonder if it has something to do with holding the dip stick tube??  It is hard to tell about the other piece, but I don't think it is a bearing race.  You would know if it was...bearings would have come out also (needles or ball) and they would have been shooting around inside jamming gears and popping inside.  I'm not sure, but I would think that pieces like that would not be able to get into the transaxle from the pump.  

   One thing is for sure...you have more pieces floating around in the transaxle.  It should be opened and checked before more or any damage is done.  I'm curious to see what @daveoman1966 has to say.  He is the Hydro-King.  

 

That piece we are looking at in the photo below I believe is the ball bearing cage from the axle bearing. 

 

First off, its the right size to be a bearing cage. Its small. The two things at the sides that look like holes are the spot welds that kept it together. 

 

So this is my theory. I believe it to be a bearing cage. I believe its the axle bearing right beside the diif. 1533 bearing. Look at the attached photo.

- There are so few of those roller bearings in the tranny.

-I dont think the bearing like that in the pump could pass large pieces into the bottom of the diff case.

-The pump and motor work great. No noise. Plenty of power. If a massive failure like this happened in the pump or motor, I dont think It would have much pressure at all.

 

So this is my theory. This gives me hope that its savable. If it was from the pump or somewhere key were serious damage is involved, I wouldnt take it apart, I would just search for a used one. 

 

Does Steve or anyone agree with my theory?

 

Cheers

- 

Edited June 4, 2022 by Mike C160

[Mike C160 251]

15 minutes ago, pacer said:

Well, one thing is for sure..... and that is that tranny is gonna HAVE to come out and find what those pieces are (which nobody has yet to identify!) Those pieces being in there cannot in any way be good and are screaming to 'find out what I am

 

15 minutes ago, pacer said:

 

Those pieces scream to me one of two things. I need to decide.

 

1) Its a simple repairable axle bearing, take it apart and repair it.

2) its a catastrophic failure I wont be able to find parts for, source a used one

 

This is the 64 dollar question.

 

Cheers 

[8ntruck 6,389]

You beat me to it.  I was just going to post that piece looks like a piece of bearing cage.

 

If enough of that bearing cage has failed, you eventually will have loose ball bearings in the transmission.

 

If it were mine, I'd open it up to see what is going on before it goes crunch/bang.

[Mike C160 251]

6 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

 

 

Being an automatic, the hubs may very well be removable without extreme effort. 

 

I curious and your post gives me hope as I dont have much hope for this tractor right now.

 

Why do the hubs come off an auto easier??

 

Cheers

[squonk 38,976]

1 hour ago, Mike C160 said:

 

I curious and your post gives me hope as I dont have much hope for this tractor right now.

 

Why do the hubs come off an auto easier??

 

Cheers

They don't.

[WHX?? 46,829]

We ain't figured out yet what planet EB is from  but I just fought with some on a C-121 auto. 

Gotta be a bearing cage but if they are 1533 bearings Lowell has them.

 

You seem to be pretty good with a wrench Mike I don't think you'd have a problem replacing it other yah the hubs but even then with a hub puller shouldn't be insurmountable. 

[oliver2-44 8,868]

I'll speculate that second piece is also part of a bearing cage. In its center length it looks like a bearing ball path, and it is about the same width.  I think it has just been bent up by the differential gears. 

[cafoose 3,148]

16 minutes ago, WHX?? said:

even then with a hub puller shouldn't be insurmountable

DO NOT use a three jaw gear puller in the outside of the hub. If you do, most probably the hub will break. There are numerous posts on pulling the hub properly. Here are some examples:

 

 

[Mike C160 251]

1 hour ago, WHX?? said:

We ain't figured out yet what planet EB is from  but I just fought with some on a C-121 auto. 

Gotta be a bearing cage but if they are 1533 bearings Lowell has them.

 

You seem to be pretty good with a wrench Mike I don't think you'd have a problem replacing it other yah the hubs but even then with a hub puller shouldn't be insurmountable. 

 

Herein lays the problem.

 

I used to have a fully equipped private shop. Did custom turbo systems development there. 

 

But My tenant in the attached apartment BURN IT TO THE GROUND. I LOST EVERYTHING

 

If you would like to see my work, please view the photos attached to this page. This is my last project I completed in my shop before it was burnt to the ground for me. > (5) Pontiac Grand Prix GT - Turbo L36 Project | Facebook

 

So, I am now working outside, in my driveway with a limited amount of tools I have managed to purchase over the last year. If I had my shop this would not be a big job. But I dont have a shop, so this is a big undertaking that I really wish I didnt have to do in my driveway. 

 

So careful consideration is being used here. I have the skills indeed. I am space and tool limited. Doesnt matter how you slice it, this is going to be a struggle doing it PROPERLY in my driveway.

 

Ugh

 

 

[Mike C160 251]

52 minutes ago, cafoose said:

DO NOT use a three jaw gear puller in the outside of the hub. If you do, most probably the hub will break. There are numerous posts on pulling the hub properly. Here are some examples:

 

 

 

Thank you

 

I will review but Im guessing I dont have the tools to remove the hub should they be stuck.

 

Cheers

[stevasaurus 22,234]

If one hub comes off, you can use it to make a puller for the one that is stuck.  Your transaxle is completely fixable.  Would have been nice if you had placed a quarter or something next to those pieces in your pictures so as to give a size relationship.    Anyway, you do not need the pump and the transaxle can be taken off without pulling the pump.  The directions are above.  If you were to buy another transaxle, you would still have to get your wheels and external parts off...so...go for it, it may come apart easy.    I would not drive that horse until fixed.  

   It would have been nice to have those pictures in your post #14, it would have saved a lot of speculation.  I've taken apart #1533 bearings, and it is almost impossible to put them back together.  I thing I want to say here...without that piece holding the balls in place, they can drift all around inside the races.  If they all end up on the same side, the whole thing can come apart.  As long as the balls are distributed evenly, the balls can not escape.  This might be where you are at.  By the sound of it, you have no idea when this happened.  I think you are lucky you decided to change your oil.  

[Mike C160 251]

53 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

If one hub comes off, you can use it to make a puller for the one that is stuck.  Your transaxle is completely fixable.  Would have been nice if you had placed a quarter or something next to those pieces in your pictures so as to give a size relationship.    Anyway, you do not need the pump and the transaxle can be taken off without pulling the pump.  The directions are above.  If you were to buy another transaxle, you would still have to get your wheels and external parts off...so...go for it, it may come apart easy.    I would not drive that horse until fixed.  

   It would have been nice to have those pictures in your post #14, it would have saved a lot of speculation.  I've taken apart #1533 bearings, and it is almost impossible to put them back together.  I thing I want to say here...without that piece holding the balls in place, they can drift all around inside the races.  If they all end up on the same side, the whole thing can come apart.  As long as the balls are distributed evenly, the balls can not escape.  This might be where you are at.  By the sound of it, you have no idea when this happened.  I think you are lucky you decided to change your oil.  

 

So some questions.

 

Can the transaxle case be split without removing the pump?

 

And if so, can I split the case in the tractor removing the two under carriage bolts?

 

I suppose these 1533 bearings are common place failures?

 

Cheers