Looking for something fun to do...

[WheelHorse520H 708]

Okay, so I bought a very strong 416-H a couple of weeks ago and was thinking about adding a front end loader. I am on a budget so I am trying to figure out a good welder to buy for this project, what thickness metal to use, where to mount it, and what I need to beef up on the tractor to get this good and strong. The primary use for this will likely be to move dirt in my driveway and pile snow in big storms. I want to make this somewhat easy to take on and off so I can use this tractor for mowing the lawn and such if my 520 needs service. I appreciate all you help and I know you guys have some creativity that would come in use here.

Thanks in advance,

Andrew

[WheelHorse520H 708]

Also I forgot, it needs to be 50" wide or less unless it can go over the fence next to the gate to our backyard.

 

Thanks

[Pullstart 68,551]

You might not like to hear this, but it might be cheaper to keep your eyes peeled for a used one…

[WheelHorse520H 708]

22 minutes ago, Pullstart said:

You might not like to hear this, but it might be cheaper to keep your eyes peeled for a used one…

Been doing that for a while, but the only one I ever saw was super beat up and didn't look like it could lift an empty bucket. Dare I ask why you say that?

[Pullstart 68,551]

Hydraulics, cost of materials, hardware, pins, fittings, etc… add up fast and quick.

 

I do need to finish my Xi loader project…

 

 

https://www.wheelhorseforum.com/topic/68968-ark-500-loader-rebuild-on-a-522xi/?page=6&tab=comments#comment-896001

[roadapples 6,985]

PF engineering has plans for loaders and backhoes. I think a loader is over 2 grand. @wallfish built his hoe for a 416...

[WheelHorse520H 708]

I have thought about ordering the PF plans but wasn't sure how they would fit the 416. By "on a budget" I should have said 2000-2500 max. Right now is really just the planning phase. I look to starting this around mid July or August so I have time to order parts and hopefully build this in the fall/winter months.

Thanks guys.

Edited May 9, 2022 by WheelHorse520H

[wallfish 18,793]

Start by ordering the https://pf-engineering.com/loader-plans

Money well spent to have a proven design and it will greatly reduce most of the guess work. It's more expensive to build one than to buy one BUT, you can spend the money over time as you build, you end up with a new loader, the build can be modified to fit your needs and the priceless feeling of accomplishment when it's done. Total cost will be over 2K so any steel you can scavenge the better. The plans won't include the design for the sub-frame for attaching to your particular tractor but once you get close we can help you with measurements and pictures to build one.  

[953 nut 63,195]

13 hours ago, WheelHorse520H said:

figure out a good welder to buy for this project,

Look around for a good used Lincoln buzzbox welder, they are a very common item and can be bought new for $ 400, used about $ 100 or so.

[WheelHorse520H 708]

22 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

Look around for a good used Lincoln buzzbox welder, they are a very common item and can be bought new for $ 400, used about $ 100 or so.

I don't have experience to do Stick or Tig, and don't have knowledge about wire and gas for MIG. I was looking at Fluxcore welders from HF. Anyone bought one before? Is it any good for this project?

 

1 hour ago, wallfish said:

Total cost will be over 2K so any steel you can scavenge the better.

So within my budget, or  the upper 2Ks?

[953 nut 63,195]

27 minutes ago, WheelHorse520H said:

don't have experience to do Stick

None of us were born knowing anything. Watch a few youtube videos on stick welding, buy the welder and some 6011 rod and start sticking pieces of steel together. @ebinmaine has a post on his venture into welding that should give you some inspiration.

       The Harbor freight flux core welders aren't made for structural welding'. I wouldn't trust their welds for a loader, you would need something like a 200 amp wire feed welder for good penetration and duty cycle and that would eat up half your budget.

[Pullstart 68,551]

I have a Lincoln 135 Plus MIG welder.  With multiple passes, I’ve welded up snow plow frames on trucks when needed.  I do however agree with Richard.  A good investment on a welder to lift heavy loads overhead is a wise choice.

[Handy Don 15,297]

27 minutes ago, Pullstart said:

I have a Lincoln 135 Plus MIG welder.  With multiple passes, I’ve welded up snow plow frames on trucks when needed.  I do however agree with Richard.  A good investment on a welder to lift heavy loads overhead is a wise choice.

 

51 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

something like a 200 amp wire feed welder for good penetration and duty cycle

 

@WheelHorse520H IMHO, the size and power of the welder are important but it's the knowledge and experience of the operator that matter more.

 

Experience and practice are the only way. They will teach you what a given welder is capable of in the energy it can deliver to the joint (amperage) to melt the metal you are sticking together and the wire/stick metal you are adding. They will familiarize you with how long a machine can weld before needing to cool down (duty cycle). They will show you what happens if the metal is rusty or dirty or if the wire feed speed is too slow or too fast. They will help you recognize a good weld (and a weak one) since you MUST cut through some of your practice welds to see what happened below the surface.

 

As @Pullstart notes, with good preparation, and multiple passes with good bonding, a modestly powered welder can do a lot. The HF 140, for example, has had good reviews as a non-professional, modest use machine, even by pros. Hobart, Miller, and Lincoln all make well-reviewed MIG wire welders. As @953 nut mentions, heavier machines usually deliver more amperage for longer. As both noted, if your life or limb depends on the results, go bigger rather than smaller. (Remember, too, that above 120 amps you'll need either a dedicated 30 amp 110v circuit or 15 amp 220v circuit).

 

My own admonitions are here. Invest fully in safety equipment, accessories, and environment. Spend $110+ on an excellent new welding mask (A Hobart Inventor series, for example). Get full gauntlet heavy welding gloves. Think about flameproof protection for your upper body, legs and feet. Use quality welding wire or sticks (read the reviews). Use enough clamps or fixtures to ensure that the workpieces will remain stable while you weld. Be sure you have good ventilation and no nearby flammables (vapors or solids).

[WheelHorse520H 708]

1 hour ago, 953 nut said:

None of us were born knowing anything. Watch a few youtube videos on stick welding, buy the welder and some 6011 rod and start sticking pieces of steel together. @ebinmaine has a post on his venture into welding that should give you some inspiration.

       The Harbor freight flux core welders aren't made for structural welding'. I wouldn't trust their welds for a loader, you would need something like a 200 amp wire feed welder for good penetration and duty cycle and that would eat up half your budget.

I appreciate the input. I have stick welded before, but on flat plates I always get the rod stuck. It's really a matter of practice but I didn't want to buy a machine and burn it out or something by doing that. If it's safer to stick weld I'll just practice more.

 

I also have to look at the circuits in my house. I'm not sure which are 30 amp 110 v, and the only 220 v we have are for our dryer and oven. Also with stick welding don't you need to keep the sticks in an oven? Where should I look for a used welder like @953 nut suggested?

 

@Handy Don I was planning on welding outside or in the garage with a door open, but only have wood work benches. Is welding on the ground an option? What other safety precautions should I take. I know work boots, jeans (because cotton is made to be fire resistant in the US), a leather jacket (new), welding gloves (also new), and a new face shield.

 

Thanks for all the advice.

[Handy Don 15,297]

Garage with open door is great. Wood table top is fine if you don't mind spatter or drips putting burns in it. Ground is ok if it isn't putting you in an awkward position but having your work at a convenient height makes it a lot easier--especially since smooth movement of the stick/gun is so important.

Getting the stick stuck is definitely a "practice more" thing! 

I'm working solely on wire feed (flux for now--MIG in future) since it is so flexible.

I have heard that keeping welding rods sealed from moisture (or baking the moisture out of them) is important, but why I don't know!

Note that welding masks with auto-darkening viewports are extremely convenient. Years ago I tried to stick weld with a fixed-darkness helmet and could never get the hang of being correctly positioned for starting the weld and then lowering the mask.

 

edit: Adding here that if buying used, stick welders are going for lower prices, at least around here. Around here also, a good MIG wire feed used has been asking 85-90% of its new price. So I bought new. I use Craigslist a lot as I'm not on Facebook.

 

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by Handy Don

[WheelHorse520H 708]

Is this the Welder you mentioned earlier? I am also wondering what duty cycle I should be looking for.

3 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

I'm working solely on wire feed (flux for now--MIG in future) since it is so flexible.

Flexible like has many uses and positions or flexible like it's easy to bend? You seem to be pro-MIG on this...

[Handy Don 15,297]

I am personally pro-wire feed (MIG is an option and means that there is an inert gas flowing to surround the point of the weld which reduces its contact with oxygen in the air). This is because my tasks all will be with metal ¼" thick and less. But I have a lot of respect for stick welding (and stick welding operators) especially for working on thicker objects that require a lot of heat and added metal (like thick plates, or heavy equipment repairs).

 

Flexible as in it uses a "gun" where the welding wire is fed out through a mechanism in the machine to the point of the weld and, for MIG, the gun also directs the inert gas. Because the machine brings the wire to the weld, it's easier for an operator to maintain the gun at the right distance from weld point and to maneuver along the joint or seam. I think of it as wire feed letting you move mostly in two dimensions whereas with a stick you have to move in three dimensions (as the stick gets shorter your hand moves closer). Also, with a stick, any unsteadiness in your hand is exaggerated at the end of the welding rod. Lastly, the gun has a trigger--it starts the wire feed, activates the electric supply, and turns on the gas flow (if using MIG) all at once and when released it shuts all of that off. To me, a great example of technology making things safer and more convenient!

 

BOTH are flexible as to the kinds of metal they can stick together (steel, stainless, iron, aluminum, etc.) by using the appropriate wire or welding rod. Both are flexible (within their respective design ranges) of varying the amount of energy (amperage) they put into the weld.

 

I should note that, depending on your budget, you can get a single machine capable of both wire feed and stick welding if you want that flexibility.

[WheelHorse520H 708]

34 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

I think of it as wire feed letting you move mostly in two dimensions whereas with a stick you have to move in three dimensions (as the stick gets shorter your hand moves closer). Also, with a stick, any unsteadiness in your hand is exaggerated at the end of the welding rod. Lastly, the gun has a trigger--it starts the wire feed, activates the electric supply, and turns on the gas flow (if using MIG) all at once and when released it shuts all of that off. To me, a great example of technology making things safer and more convenient!

I agree. That third dimension is why I originally considered MIG / fluxcore as my choice. I am also not a fan of leaving a live wire on the work surface when I shut the machine off. That might just be me. I am also a little skittish with stick because at my vocational school we were going through every shop and I was stick welding for a couple of weeks and one day the upper class men were learning how to fix the machines and one didn't tighten the electrode holder on enough and it fell off when I was about to lay another bead. 

 

36 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

I should note that, depending on your budget, you can get a single machine capable of both wire feed and stick welding if you want that flexibility.

I have seen those and thought previously about getting one.

 

@Pullstart what gauge and type of metal did you use? This would help me determine what type and strength welder I buy.

[Snoopy11 5,723]

Have you thought about starting with something like this, and fabbing the brackets and parts necessary to make it work?

 

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200150824_200150824?cm_mmc=Bing-pla&cmpid=53403399&agid=3200075912&tgtid=pla-4577404347789163&prdid=2500875&msclkid=28c50b297f9812088a9169502c073837&gclsrc=ds

 

Don

[WheelHorse520H 708]

1 hour ago, Snoopy11 said:

Have you thought about starting with something like this, and fabbing the brackets and parts necessary to make it work?

 

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200150824_200150824?cm_mmc=Bing-pla&cmpid=53403399&agid=3200075912&tgtid=pla-4577404347789163&prdid=2500875&msclkid=28c50b297f9812088a9169502c073837&gclsrc=ds

 

Don

No, but that may not be a bad idea. ATV included? Lol.

 

I found this welder that has only a couple of bad reviews but seems like a good investment for this project. Thoughts?

[Snoopy11 5,723]

3 minutes ago, WheelHorse520H said:

Thoughts?

 

Nope... buy a Jegs mig 100... I have a Jegs mig 100... and 220... but... I rarely use the bigger one... as... the 100 is awesome...

 

Don

Edited May 9, 2022 by Snoopy11

[Snoopy11 5,723]

Basically this, @WheelHorse520H

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/401165735370?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-213727-13078-0&mkcid=2&itemid=401165735370&targetid=4580496732614413&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=418233788&mkgroupid=1230353745471221&rlsatarget=pla-4580496732614413&abcId=9300542&merchantid=51291&msclkid=59851f82963f1a23c3da7dfbfd54fe3c

 

Don

[WheelHorse520H 708]

Not saying it's a bad welder but it doesn't have the MIG and Stick option and the power output seems a bit low. It looks like it could get the job done but the 10% duty cycle seems like I would spend a lot of time waiting. That's from a non-welder's perspective though. All though, if others here thinks it's a good idea I'm all for saving some $$. I appreciate the input @Snoopy11.

[Handy Don 15,297]

I looked closely at this model during my search and came close to buying it.

Comments:

- it DOES have Mig and stick capability (stick out of the box; MIG with accessories)

- when run at 140 a practiced operator could do mild steel up to ¼" in short bursts

- the unit's positive reviews seem solid

- given the negatives, I'd want to put it to work immediately after purchase to be sure you got one that works fully and correctly (get an experienced welder to work with you?) so you can return it if there is a problem

- it is an inverter unit. It uses solid state components instead of a transformer--this means it's much lighter and has very precise current control compared to a transformer style.

- At this price point it is not designed or constructed for constant use

- it does not include the gas regulator and hose needed to attach a MIG gas cylinder to the machine

- had to read the manual carefully to confirm that it needs the dedicated 20 amp 110 circuit with a slo-blow 30-amp breaker to work at the higher amperages (probably anything over 90)--I'm not sure if that is kosher under the electric codes in all places

- Duty cycle is 30% at 90 amps - useable for 3 minutes out of 10 at that power. It'll run less time at higher power so if you are doing heavy or long welds, you'll have to take regular breaks to let the machine cool

- does include some starter wire and a single replacement tip (Forney wire is well reviewed; tips will wear out and are considered consumable). The tip is what makes contact with the wire as it leaves the gun to supply the electric current.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Handy Don

[WheelHorse520H 708]

Appreciate the feedback @Handy Don, is this about the one I posted or the on @Snoopy11 posted? The one I posted I was wondering about the duty cycle. The Home Depot website says 60% duty cycle (at non-specified amperage) and another website said 30% at I believe 90 amps.

 

Thanks for all the speedy replies.