Pole Barn

[WHX?? 47,040]

48 minutes ago, wallfish said:

Ha, I've had plenty of people try to mark them like that!

Done hundreds like that 'Fish and never been off but I only been doing this for 35 years so maybe I'm  wrong.

My point has always been with the customers ..drill at your own risk .... thought I covered that in plan ahead...maybe not. Anyhoo I can pin point them no problem with the equipment I have.

Edited March 2, 2022 by WHX??

[wallfish 16,038]

17 minutes ago, WHX?? said:

Done hundreds like that 'Fish and never been off but I only been doing this for 35 years so maybe I'm  wrong.

I'm just say'n in 5 years quite a few have been drilled into even though they were supposedly identified by the same pros that actually installed them.

I'm not debating your experience but I don't trust those things from mine.

Every time was customers that just don't listen to advice. Customer "Nope, I want it right here!" Me "Okie Dokie" Then me again "Told ya so!"

[Pullstart 60,185]

@wallfish how do you repair a line in or under a slab?

[oliver2-44 8,922]

6 hours ago, WHX?? said:

Old skool

New skool you wanna know where them tubes are. 

My bare feet found my 3 in slab copper pipes leaks I’ve had. But my thermo gun like the one above sure has been helpful to narrow down the actual leak spot. Use it on a tractor every now and then too. 

[wallfish 16,038]

9 hours ago, Pullstart said:

@wallfish how do you repair a line in or under a slab?

You have to chisel out the concrete to get enough tube exposed to splice it. I already have a 4 1/2" cored hole there so the concrete chips away easier than if there wasn't one and it provides enough room to get your hands in there to work. Plus I can see exactly where the tube is so I try to keep the access as small as possible. We'll still use that same cored hole for what we do so that leaves a future access point to the splice just in case. It's just a PITA but certainly not the end of the world. Less than an hour because I'll have the repair parts with me.

 

[ebinmaine 63,532]

On 3/1/2022 at 12:10 PM, JimSraj said:

Definitely include a vapor barrier under the slab. If you are planning on spending a lot of time in this building in the winter you might want to consider under slab insulation as well.

Is the vapor barrier a particular type of plastic sheeting?

Or literally a big tarp?

 

Do you folks think a wood frame, wood sides with a metal roof will rain indoors?

 

[JPWH 5,320]

@ebinmaine I have a 12 x 14 wood framed addition on the back of my shop with a concrete slab, no vapor barrier and a metal roof. I get no raining inside.

Jay

[WHX?? 47,040]

3 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

Do you folks think a wood frame, wood sides with a metal roof will rain indoors?

Yes it will don't ask me how I know...  Wetted the top of a table saw & rusted ... took me hours to clean up. 

Kinda rare for it happen tho humidity temperature conditions have to be just right. Mostly in the spring when frost is leaving.

They have roof steel out now with a felt like coating on it that is supposed to keep condensation off but house wrap under the panels will do the same thing. 

[lynnmor 6,860]

With the wild swings in temperature lately, I found puddles of "rain" under my truck and tractor inside the pole barn.  All it takes is the right temperature difference and humidity to form condensation.  My diesel truck has that large cruise missile for an exhaust so it stays cold for a long time after a fast rise in air temperature.  I actually took the truck for a drive to stop the "rain" and possible rust.

[kwalshy 227]

On 3/1/2022 at 7:11 PM, WHX?? said:

 

Hope we're not going to far Kwalsky. Let us know if so I'll  be happy to straiten the others out....

  

All good information being shared, just slightly off topic - however still interesting to learn about relevant experiences from all.  I did consider pex in the slab for radiant heating, but that is out of my budget.  

[WHX?? 47,040]

23 minutes ago, kwalshy said:

but that is out of my budget.

Agreed and if it was in the budget that coin would be better served by other amenities or energy conservation measures. 

[kwalshy 227]

I've been reading probably too many posts on other forums about types of insulation.  The options being proposed to me from the builders are mostly batt on the walls and blown in on the ceiling.  I have seen pics and read about other builds with closed cell sprayfoam on the walls.   

 

So my question is, does anybody have any experience with sprayfoam insulation in their pole barn?  I would think a vapor barrier would still be required between the sprayfoam and metal sheathing?

 

 

[Handy Don 10,757]

4 minutes ago, kwalshy said:

I've been reading probably too many posts on other forums about types of insulation.  The options being proposed to me from the builders are mostly batt on the walls and blown in on the ceiling.  I have seen pics and read about other builds with closed cell sprayfoam on the walls.   

 

So my question is, does anybody have any experience with sprayfoam insulation in their pole barn?  I would think a vapor barrier would still be required between the sprayfoam and metal sheathing?

So I asked this of my architect son.

His response:

1. If you do insulation make sure it is continuous on the metal (i.e. no exposed metal where warm moist interior air can condense on cold metal exposed on the outside). If that's done, no other vapor barrier needed. (He adds, that spray foam is terrible for the planet with lots of very harmful gases released during manufacture and installation.)

Another insulation option is plastic-wrapped bats that are taped on the heated side (i.e. on the heated space side) where the polyethylene wrapping with the tape forms the vapor barrier.

2. Before doing foam insulation, check with the metal roofing/siding manufacturer as putting on certain types may void their warranty.

3. A sturdy under-slab vapor barrier is mandatory and often required by code anyway for even an intermittently heated space.

[wallfish 16,038]

1 hour ago, Handy Don said:

3. A sturdy under-slab vapor barrier is mandatory and often required by code anyway for even an intermittently heated space.

About 30% of the new buildings around here seem to have one. The contractors don't like it because it slows the curing of the concrete. I'm talking about everything from 2000 to the present.It's just not common to find them.  I like to see those vapor barriers because we don't have to seal all of those control joints cut into the floors when they're there. I thought is was code too but apparently no one is looking anyway or they just pull it out right before the floor gets poured (and no one will ever know. Or, at least until the radon guy cores a hole in it!) LoL

 

 

[Handy Don 10,757]

41 minutes ago, wallfish said:

because it slows the curing of the concrete

Yeah, because the bottom of the concrete is open to moisture transfer!

Excellent point about the crack-control joints. Good vapor barrier spans them.

6mil poly is not THAT expensive and gives you protection from moisture and radon penetration. But I tend to take the long view on investments in construction, especially on infrastructure that cannot be easily replaced or repaired.

Worth noting is that wall and ceiling vapor barriers only come into play under certain weather conditions--a slab barrier is working ALL THE TIME!

[kwalshy 227]

I have yet to see a single quote that includes a vapor barrier under the concrete!!! 

 

All companies are quoting 4" of 4000 psi with fibermesh, which I believe is the method used to replace the traditional metal/wire grid.  

[rmaynard 14,951]

14 minutes ago, kwalshy said:

I have yet to see a single quote that includes a vapor barrier under the concrete!!! 

 

All companies are quoting 4" of 4000 psi with fibermesh, which I believe is the method used to replace the traditional metal/wire grid.  

 

That's what I have in my floor. No vapor barrier. Its now been 2 winters, a mild one and a pretty harsh one, and I have no problems, no condensation. Best of all, if the building is built right and the concrete is poured right, there should be no place for mice to get in. That is assuming all the overhead door seals are tight.

[JimSraj 346]

The 6 mil poly vapor barrier is cheap insurance to help minimize moisture migration in my opinion. Yes it does extend the time between the pour and the final finishing bc water doesn’t drain through the placed concrete into the stone below. If the pour is made with the mix at a reasonable slump it shouldn’t be a problem. Thing is most flatwork contractors like to ‘soup it up’ to make the pour easier. There are additives that can be used to do the same thing without compromising the strength of the finished slab. Yup, the ready mix company will charge for that. 

[Lee1977 6,309]

On 3/9/2022 at 4:49 AM, ebinmaine said:

Is the vapor barrier a particular type of plastic sheeting?

Or literally a big tarp?

 

Do you folks think a wood frame, wood sides with a metal roof will rain indoors?

 

Yes, defiantly if heated, and sometimes with the right conditions with out heat with it closed in. 

[JimSraj 346]

Doesn’t have to be a particular type of poly, although they do exist. 

I have a camp in WV where the screened porch has a metal roof. If conditions are right, that is high humidity, a below freezing night, and a sunny morning, it ‘rains’ on the porch. I didn’t know about, (it may not even been available back in 1986 when I put that roof on) the felt like coating for the underside that is now available.  I know it works bc I have it on my barn roof here in SE PA.  No drips in the 4 years the barn has been up. 

[ebinmaine 63,532]

6 hours ago, JimSraj said:

screened porch has a metal roof. If conditions are right, that is high humidity, a below freezing night, and a sunny morning, it ‘rains’ on the porch.

 

That can happen up here Sept thru Nov pretty regular. 

Occasionally April or May.  

 

The BBT and I have been looking at building a pole barn for several years. 

We'll be approaching Finance about it this week. 

 

Alot of interesting info in this thread.  

[WHX?? 47,040]

On 3/9/2022 at 11:46 AM, kwalshy said:

So my question is, does anybody have any experience with sprayfoam insulation in their pole barn?  I would think a vapor barrier would still be required between the spray foam and metal sheathing?

I built a very large pole style building with a friend and he had all the sidewalls spray foamed and it was the best thing since sliced bread.  If I was to build a heated building I would certainly price it out as an alternative. No vapor barrier was used but house wrap was applied just under the steel. mainly in case any siding steel got damaged and needed to come off. One thing nice about steel panels & trim they can be easily replaced they get damaged. 

Anyway it sealed the building up very nicely and made it very energy friendly. The other nice thing about it was very mouse proof with no voids in the wall for mice to nest. I have a ton of pics I'll have to dig out.

 

As far as vapor barrier under the concrete I don't think it's necessary as long there's good drainage under slab. I would probably still do do as mentioned it doesn't cost that much and can't do it later. 

Biggest problem in my shop is condensation on the concrete floor in the spring. Since it's marginally heated just to keep stuff from freezing the slab gets very cold. Open the overhead on a warm moist spring day and the floor will sweat terrible and make it slick.  Usually goes away if a breeze hits it and the slab warms back up.  

[Ed Kennell 36,092]

10 minutes ago, WHX?? said:

 

As far as vapor barrier under the concrete I don't think it's necessary as long there's good drainage under slab.

 

                                                                               

I don't heat my pole barn as I have another shop for cold weather projects.      I put 3/8 foam under the roof, 3" stone under the concrete floor, and our code requires spouting and a seepage pit for all new construction.       The spouting and good drainage arounnd the building are key to preventing moisture under the slab.

[ebinmaine 63,532]

1 minute ago, Ed Kennell said:

spouting

You mean like gutters? What is spouting in your code?

 

[Ed Kennell 36,092]

2 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

You mean like gutters? What is spouting in your code?

 

Yep, gutters and down spouting piped into the approved seepage pit.