No spark on K181

[Crmaverick 91]

I found a fine needle file and filed the points real good. Set points to .20 gap and still no spark. 

[Handy Don 13,683]

Not to be contentious, but have you followed the test steps outlined by @wallfish to hotwire the tractor using the heavy jumper cable and connecting the wire to the + on the coil?

Have you tested the disconnected coil as described by @pfrederi?

You are getting some good advice. Are you taking it?

Let us know the results of these tests.

[Crmaverick 91]

6 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

Not to be contentious, but have you followed the test steps outlined by @wallfish to hotwire the tractor using the heavy jumper cable and connecting the wire to the + on the coil?

Have you tested the disconnected coil as described by @pfrederi?

You are getting some good advice. Are you taking it?

Let us know the results of these tests.

I did the Hotwire method and it works to turn the generator over, but still no spark.

 

I don’t have one of those spark testers for the coil so I’ll have to get one to test the coil. 

[Handy Don 13,683]

Do you have a VOM to do the resistances tests? Have you done them? What were the results?

 

If you have a healthy spark plug, you can try using it as a stopgap until you can get a spark tester. Sometimes works, but I never count on it.

[Crmaverick 91]

6 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

Do you have a VOM to do the resistances tests? Have you done them? What were the results?

 

If you have a healthy spark plug, you can try using it as a stopgap until you can get a spark tester. Sometimes works, but I never count on it.

I don’t have a VOM, the spark plug is new and wire is nice the ends look new. 

[Handy Don 13,683]

5 minutes ago, Crmaverick said:

I don’t have a VOM, the spark plug is new and wire is nice the ends look new. 

Sorry to say, looks don't cut it, nor does "new" always mean "working properly". If you want to be able to service the machine yourself rather than make guesses, you'll have to get and learn to use the right tools.

As @ebinmaine noted, adding new parts where there is an underlying problem that's not solved can be an expensive and wasteful journey.

[ebinmaine 71,823]

1 hour ago, Handy Don said:

100 is miles too coarse. It has now caused scratches that may further deteriorate your points by causing sparking once its running. I use 800 or 1000 or simply some high-fiber drawing paper scraps.

Dollar bill after some 600 to 100 grit 

[ebinmaine 71,823]

45 minutes ago, Crmaverick said:

I don’t have a VOM, the spark plug is new and wire is nice the ends look new. 

 

When I sold auto parts for a living one of the things we had to learn and remind customers a LOT....

Never assume a new part is a working part. Ever.  

 

ALL manufacturers have an acceptable defect percentage rate. 

 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,389]

Do you have a 12 volt test light?

Or a bulb and socket with 2 leads to use as a test light?

[squonk 43,361]

With out a meter, how do you know you are getting 12 volts anywhere?

[Crmaverick 91]

2 hours ago, gwest_ca said:

Do you have a 12 volt test light?

Or a bulb and socket with 2 leads to use as a test light?

I have a fluke meter, not the fancy one it’s basic I can test continuity with it but not VOM 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,389]

Any model number on your meter? Maybe we can look to see what you are working with.

[squonk 43,361]

I can't think of any meter made by Fluke that isn't a DVOM outside of a continuity tester.

[Crmaverick 91]

1 hour ago, gwest_ca said:

Any model number on your meter? Maybe we can look to see what you are working with.

 

This is the meter I’m working with. Fluke 373 link is below 
 

https://www.fluke-direct.com/product/fluke-373-trms-ac-clamp-meter#

[squonk 43,361]

That's a DVOM. You said you didn't have one? 

[Crmaverick 91]

8 hours ago, squonk said:

That's a DVOM. You said you didn't have one? 

It only allows me to do continuity tests I’m not sure where on it I can get resistance readings 

[squonk 43,361]

The horseshoe setting is resistance. That's the symbol for ohms.

 

The setting just below it is DC volts

[Handy Don 13,683]

28 minutes ago, squonk said:

The horseshoe setting is resistance. That's the symbol for ohms.

 

The setting just below it is DC volts

 

Just read your manual and you are correct, it is not able to display a reading for ohms (for ohms alone the symbol looks like this:  Ω)

It tests for, and beeps, for continuity (defined as ≤ 30 ohms) at the Ω with the "sound" symbol above it. Not precise enough for tractor electrical component work.

BTW, this is not a cheapie meter. It just has limited functions. 

 

Consider a basic VOM from Harbor Freight or the jungle site. Less than $20.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,389]

There is an easy way to determine if the points are working and your meter will do it. Set it on DC volts.

Remove the spark plug to eliminate the compression so you can turn the engine over by turning the crankshaft by hand. Put the wire back on the plug and ground the plug so the coil is not overloaded and you can see a spark if it happens.

 

Connect the tester to the battery posts to determine battery voltage.

 

Turn the ignition key to RUN and connect the red test lead to the coil (+) . Should have battery voltage whatever that is.

 

Connect the red test lead to the coil (-). Now turn the crankshaft in the normal direction of travel. When the points are open you should have battery voltage at the coil (-). When the points are closed you should have 0 volts at the coil (-) terminal. This cycle should repeat once for every two turns of the crankshaft.

If you have constant battery voltage on the (-) terminal the points are not making electrical contact when they are closed or the wire between the coil and the points is bad.

If you have constant 0 volts the points or the wire to the points is shorted to ground.

The condenser should be connected to the coil (-) or the points. Try these tests with the condenser wire disconnected.

 

It is the on-off-on-off cycle that forces the coil to fire the plug.

 

 

[Crmaverick 91]

On 11/16/2021 at 6:40 AM, gwest_ca said:

There is an easy way to determine if the points are working and your meter will do it. Set it on DC volts.

Remove the spark plug to eliminate the compression so you can turn the engine over by turning the crankshaft by hand. Put the wire back on the plug and ground the plug so the coil is not overloaded and you can see a spark if it happens.

 

Connect the tester to the battery posts to determine battery voltage.

 

Turn the ignition key to RUN and connect the red test lead to the coil (+) . Should have battery voltage whatever that is.

 

Connect the red test lead to the coil (-). Now turn the crankshaft in the normal direction of travel. When the points are open you should have battery voltage at the coil (-). When the points are closed you should have 0 volts at the coil (-) terminal. This cycle should repeat once for every two turns of the crankshaft.

If you have constant battery voltage on the (-) terminal the points are not making electrical contact when they are closed or the wire between the coil and the points is bad.

If you have constant 0 volts the points or the wire to the points is shorted to ground.

The condenser should be connected to the coil (-) or the points. Try these tests with the condenser wire disconnected.

 

It is the on-off-on-off cycle that forces the coil to fire the plug.

 

 

Thanks so I had a chance to check this out, and the points check out working as they should. I have 12 volts to the coil - terminal when the points are open. 
 

Are there any other parts that could cause no spark besides the coil at this point? 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,389]

50 minutes ago, Crmaverick said:

 I have 12 volts to the coil - terminal when the points are open. 
 

Are there any other parts that could cause no spark besides the coil at this point? 

 

If the condenser is shorted which is rare could do it. That is why I suggested you disconnect it for testing purposes.

A shorted spark plug could do it. I always try a new plug first and if that is not the problem it gets removed and saved for the next time a new plug is needed.

As long as the voltage drops to 0 when the points are closed the coil is all that is left. These systems require a coil with a built-in ballast resistor.

You do not need a Kohler coil. I understand they are quite proud of them. An auto supply or Napa have replacements for the 231281

 

[squonk 43,361]

As Gary said. Make sure the voltage changes from 12 to 0 as the points open and close. I think you need new points myself. I believe the contacts got ruined with the 100 grit paper. I just got an 8 HP Kohler running today that had no spark by gently cleaning the points. I've hardly ever seen a coil go bad unless someone left the key on. Napa aftermarket coil IC14

[Crmaverick 91]

I had a chance to work on this again. I replaced the points and coil and now I have spark. 
 

Also I had to bypass the ignition switch and put power directly to the starter gen since it wasn’t turning over again.
 

This is the second ignition switch I’ve tried but it must also be bad like the first one. When I put power directly to the SG top post with the coil wire I can now get it turn over every time and get spark now. 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,389]

What is the part number of the ignition switch you are using?

Does your tractor have a starter solenoid? Makes a difference on the switch required.

What model of tractor is this?