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mmmmmdonuts

K301 Points Push Rod Not Moving

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mmmmmdonuts

I was snowblowing the other day and got about half way through my driveway and all of a sudden my tractor died and I could not get it restarted. The first thing I noticed when it died was that the battery went down rapidly to about 7V but I think that had to do with my external alternator hooked up and not spinning but I could be wrong. I got the tractor back in the shed and could not get it turned over at all. The starter spins and everything seemed to move freely but I was not getting a spark. Changed the spark plug yesterday because it looked pretty gummed up and still nothing. This morning I was diving into the electrical system and got to the points where I was going to reset the timing and I realized that the points plunger does not move when I rotate the flywheel by hand.

 

rps20161218_080409.jpg

 

I guess at this point I don't entirely know what I have to do. Is it an easy/worth it fix or does the whole engine need to come apart? Can I change it to a different type of ignition system? Any other thoughts to try? Repower?

 

Thanks,

Bob

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Ed Kennell

Is the rod aluminum?   I believe there was a bulletin where they were wearing out and needed to be replaced by steel rods.

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oldredrider

The plunger rod may just be stuck. Remove the points and pull the rod out and check for movement. May just be gummed up. 

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mmmmmdonuts

The rod is definitely looks like aluminum. It is on a 1968 Raider. Alright I will remove the points and see if I can move the rod by hand. What should it be cleaned with? How hard is it to replace or remove and clean up? I will look at the Kohler manual as well.

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oldredrider

The rod should just pull right out. Clean up with any de-greaser. If it doesnt move freely, try spraying a small amount of cleaner in the hole and working push rod in and out until free.

After looking closely at your pic, maybe your points gap just closed up and is not putting tension on the rod. Try adjusting  your points gap.

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mmmmmdonuts

Alright. I removed the points and the entire rod moves in and out very easily and can remove it without a problem. This is what is supposed to happen correct?

 

Edit: I think I understand what you mean. I will try and reattach the points. 

Edited by mmmmmdonuts

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stevasaurus

While you have the points off...pull the spark plug, put the point shaft back in, keep a finger on the end of the shaft and turn the engine over by hand.  You should feel the plunger move up and down.  This might tell you that your cam shaft is broken or not.   This would be the worst it could be...fixable, but would require an engine tear down. 

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mmmmmdonuts

I pulled the spark plug and turned the flywheel a few turns while pushing the points shaft in and the points shaft did not move at all. Does that mean the cam shaft is done? How hard is it to tear apart the engine and replace the cam shaft? Easier or harder than a 5060 transmission? Any other thoughts? Thanks. 

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pfrederi

Couple of checks before tear down.  How long is your push rod??  (should be 1.25")

 

Pull the head (or open up the crankcase breather).  Do the valves go up and down as you turn the engine?

Edited by pfrederi
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mmmmmdonuts

The points shaft measures 1.5" and shaft sticks out about 7/16" out of the engine. When moving the flywheel the cylinders on top move as well fairly freely. rps20161218_152231.jpgrps20161218_152205.jpgrps20161218_152126.jpg

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pfrederi

The valves go up and down yet the plunger doesn't push against your finger as engine turns over??  Very strange... The cam that opertes the point plunger is a machines surface on the cam shaft.  No way for it to "spin" or come loose.  Wear is i suppose possible but hard to believe it would cause a sudden failure

IMG_0043.JPG

Edited by pfrederi
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mmmmmdonuts

I guess my question is how high are the other two valves supposed to go? Here is a video of it.

VID_20161218_151819.mp4

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pfrederi

Valves are opening enough. If you feel no push against the plunger while turning the engine over I am stumped.

 

 

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mmmmmdonuts

So I put the points back in and the plunger is in fact moving so I think I am just setting my points wrong. I got the kirk engines ignition thing and I am most likely screwing up the points. While I got the top of the engine off what is the best way to clean it?

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pfrederi
3 hours ago, mmmmmdonuts said:

I pulled the spark plug and turned the flywheel a few turns while pushing the points shaft in and the points shaft did not move at all. Does that mean the cam shaft is done? How hard is it to tear apart the engine and replace the cam shaft? Easier or harder than a 5060 transmission? Any other thoughts? Thanks. 

I must sayy i do not understand how it didn't move back the but does now!

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mmmmmdonuts

I realized what I was doing wrong was setting the points gap. I didn't think it was moving because I was using a timing light to set the timing. The problem I was having was the light never would go off so the points would never close. 

 

Now that I fixed that I believe I can get it working again. I guess I was just having a brain fart today.:-( Must of been the cold of the shed. Thank you for the help. 

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stevasaurus

I'm thinking that the points shaft really does not move that much and may be hard for a new guy to detect.  No disrespect intended mmmmdonuts.  I know I might have trouble trying to detect that.  The only reason I say this about the cam, is that Erby from France just went thorough this with a Kohler 8 hp...and it turned out he had a broken cam shaft.  I am thinking it would be wise to eliminate that before we got into it.  Looks like we did.  :)

  A credit card used as a scraper will clean the carbon off the valves and block.  A vacuum while doing that is a good idea.

   I just saw your last response...did you notice the "clean" area on your piston...to the left in the 1st picture in post #10.  That would be oil blow by doing that, and you can also see it in your pictures of the the head.  You are looking at bad rings and oil is setting on top once in a while.  It is not as bad as what I just had, but it is a problem and you will want to take care of that in the near future....spring/summer.  Might not take much to take care of early...it does not get better by waiting.  Just so you know.

DSCF8582.JPG

 

 

 

Edited by stevasaurus

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mmmmmdonuts
26 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

I'm thinking that the points shaft really does not move that much and may be hard for a new guy to detect.  No disrespect intended mmmmdonuts.  I know I might have trouble trying to detect that. 

I am just learning. Two months ago is the first time I even tried setting points. I must of got part of it right but the timing must of been off or something. I honestly am just enjoying learning more about the tractors even if the happen at the most in oppertune time.

 

30 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

I just saw your last response...did you notice the "clean" area on your piston...to the left in the 1st picture in post #10.  That would be oil blow by doing that, and you can also see it in your pictures of the the head.  You are looking at bad rings and oil is setting on top once in a while.  It is not as bad as what I just had, but it is a problem and you will want to take care of that in the near future....spring/summer.  Might not take much to take care of early...it does not get better by waiting.  Just so you know.

Alright. I am going to scrap it off for now but will try and take care of it early spring. Did you have a post showing what you did for the rings? Otherwise I will read in the service manual. 

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953 nut

One thing to consider is that the points setting also sets your ignition timing. I am attaching the proper way to accomplish this.

Kohler static_timing.pdf

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stevasaurus

Just to answer one of your questions above.  Tearing down a Kohler engine is about the same as doing a #5060 trans.  You do need a few special tools, but they are not expensive.  @prondzy did an 8hp Kohler R & R if you want to take a good look and see some very good pictures.  Here is the link.  :)

 

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mmmmmdonuts

953 Nut,

 

Thanks for the link. That is actually what I was trying to do initially following kirk engines instructions and I think I just screwed it up to the point where the points never completely closed. I ended up with a point gap of around 0.18 when I gapped it last night. Got to get everything back together and see if it works and it is timed correctly.

 

Stevasaurus,


Thanks for that rebuild thread. Definitely will look into it soon depending on what time allows.

Edited by mmmmmdonuts
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WHNerd

Can someone please tell me the length of the points pushrod?  The pushrod on my K321 appears to me mushroomed on the end.

Thank you!!

 

 

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