K181 governor issue

[Cjwv1975 117]

Trying to get my 854 running. I can get it to idle ok but with slightest throttle movement it really surges to over 3600 rpms. Ive adjusted governor, adjusted points, new spark plug, tested fuel pump and adjusted throttle cable with no real improvement.  Am starting to think something is wrong with governor gear itself.  I think tab is still on governor shaft cause it does hit a stop in both directions while adjusting governor. 

1. How do you test to see if governor gear is working?

2. Do you have to completely tear engine down to replace it if it is bad?

Thanks

[squonk 44,165]

Unhook the link from the gov arm and carb and see if the gov shaft still feels like it hit a stop. The limits on the carb throttle shaft can mimic the shaft stop.

[Cjwv1975 117]

11 minutes ago, squonk said:

Unhook the link from the gov arm and carb and see if the gov shaft still feels like it hit a stop. The limits on the carb throttle shaft can mimic the shaft stop.

Yeah I took while governor assembly apart to check it out. It still hit stops

[wallfish 18,467]

39 minutes ago, Cjwv1975 said:

1. How do you test to see if governor gear is working?

With everything connected and the governor adjusted per the manual, start the engine and move the gov to carb link by hand. It should push back hard trying to close the carb as you are trying to open it. There's no guess work as you should definitely feel it

 

2. Do you have to completely tear engine down to replace it if it is bad?

If the problem is internal, Yes

 

Verify the coil spring which connects the disc to the arm is connected properly or not broken

[Cjwv1975 117]

50 minutes ago, wallfish said:

 

Verify the coil spring which connects the disc to the arm is connected properly or not broken

Spring is connected and not broken. I am leaning more and more towards something internal. Ill have to compare the feel to my others but it doesnt seem to be pushing back much.  

 

Do you have to really tear into it or just open oil pan and wiggle around to replace. 

[squonk 44,165]

Entire engine has to come apart to get to the gear.

[Cjwv1975 117]

22 minutes ago, squonk said:

Entire engine has to come apart to get to the gear.

Ugh. How common does that gear go bad. Could the counter weights be stuck

[squonk 44,165]

9 hours ago, Cjwv1975 said:

Ugh. How common does that gear go bad. Could the counter weights be stuck

Never seen a gear go bad. It's always the shaft tab broken.

[Cjwv1975 117]

56 minutes ago, squonk said:

Never seen a gear go bad. It's always the shaft tab broken.

I have another carb am going to throw on today and see what happens. I am going to go over governor linkage again just to see.  If none of that works I'll pull engine and drop oil pan and take a look inside. Ive spoken to guy the I bought it from and he said he used it some before he put it up and it was ok. I could very well have something setup wrong. 

[wallfish 18,467]

With everything connected and the governor adjusted per the manual,

If the governor arm is locked onto the shaft in the wrong position it will not operate properly

Also check that the arm is actually locking tight to the shaft. Hold the shaft with pliers and try moving the arm to verify the shaft is not slipping in the arm connection hole. That got me once and drove me nuts because it appeared tight and it couldn't be tightened any more. YET, that hole was worn and it was letting the shaft slip in the arm. I have no idea how it got that way but it was a used engine that was bought.

Just kinda throwing spit balls to what sticks

 

[Cjwv1975 117]

4 hours ago, wallfish said:

With everything connected and the governor adjusted per the manual,

If the governor arm is locked onto the shaft in the wrong position it will not operate properly

Also check that the arm is actually locking tight to the shaft. Hold the shaft with pliers and try moving the arm to verify the shaft is not slipping in the arm connection hole. That got me once and drove me nuts because it appeared tight and it couldn't be tightened any more. YET, that hole was worn and it was letting the shaft slip in the arm. I have no idea how it got that way but it was a used engine that was bought.

Just kinda throwing spit balls to what sticks

 

One thing I do notice compared to my other 4 WH is the governor arm is pushing the throttle linkage pretty hard and my other ones are pretty loose. I didnt get a chance to mess with it today. 

[Cjwv1975 117]

Ok i got it to idle and run. Switched carb out, new condenser and points.  Still very touchy on throttle movement not even to half throttle pull and it would be well over 3600.  Also drove it around some and up hills I had to give it some throttle. I assume that's bad lol.  Anyway I am going to autoparts store tomorrow and rent a borescope and hopefully fish it up through oil drain plug and can see whats up with governor gear. 

[oliver2-44 10,840]

7 hours ago, Cjwv1975 said:

  Anyway I am going to autoparts store tomorrow and rent a borescope and hopefully fish it up through oil drain plug and can see whats up with governor gear. 

 

If they don't have one, there are some inexpensive  one on the Jungle that use your phone screen.

[Cjwv1975 117]

Bought a cheap one on Amazon last night and got today. Tab and gear are all there and its a metal gear too.  Looks like some gunk around weights and was able to hit it with some penatrating oil from governor shaft hole. Ill wait a few hrs and see. So if weights move its basically me screwing with linkage setup till its good. 

[rmaynard 16,452]

22 hours ago, Cjwv1975 said:

Tab and gear are all there and its a metal gear too.  

 

 

I see the gear and fly weights, but where is the cross shaft and tab?

 

[Cjwv1975 117]

1 hour ago, rmaynard said:

 

I see the gear and fly weights, but where is the cross shaft and tab?

 

They are there I just didnt get them in that picture.  Its running but I think theres an electrical issue or fuel issue. It'll run for about 10minutes than stop. I can get it to run very briefly with choke but thats it after. I gave up on it for the wknd lol. 

[ebinmaine 73,725]

1 hour ago, Cjwv1975 said:

FUEL issue. It'll run for about 10minutes than stop. I can get it to run very briefly with choke

 

I'd tend to lean towards fuel if choke/no choke makes a difference.  

 

What's been done to the entire fuel system?

 

[Cjwv1975 117]

2 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

 

I'd tend to lean towards fuel if choke/no choke makes a difference.  

 

What's been done to the entire fuel system?

 

New fuel line, filter, cleaned carb and tank. Fuel pump is working pumps fuel checked it. 

[ebinmaine 73,725]

Normally  - running only with choke means there's dirt in the carb blocking a passage.  

[Cjwv1975 117]

1 hour ago, ebinmaine said:

Normally  - running only with choke means there's dirt in the carb blocking a passage.  

Ive cleaned it once but did notice some crap in my sediment bowl today. Nothing in the filter though. Ill take off and throw it in my ultra sonic cleaner. It doesnt have the right ignition switch on it, could that be it?  This 854 has a solenoid which should be a 5 pole switch this one has more than that

[ebinmaine 73,725]

22 minutes ago, Cjwv1975 said:

Ive cleaned it once but did notice some crap in my sediment bowl today. Nothing in the filter though.

 

You'll also want to:

Remove and clean or replace the line from filter to carb. 

Remove and clean the fuel pump again. Remove and clean or replace the line from fuel pump to carb.  

 

 

22 minutes ago, Cjwv1975 said:

 

Ill take off and throw it in my ultra sonic cleaner.

 

 

22 minutes ago, Cjwv1975 said:

It doesnt have the right ignition switch on it, could that be it?  This 854 has a solenoid which should be a 5 pole switch this one has more than that

 

I personally won't use a switch unless I'm SURE it's correct and known to work in the application. 

Can you see a letter on all the terminals? 

 

[Cjwv1975 117]

2 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

 

You'll also want to:

Remove and clean or replace the line from filter to carb. 

Remove and clean the fuel pump again. Remove and clean or replace the line from fuel pump to carb.  

 

 

 

 

 

I personally won't use a switch unless I'm SURE it's correct and known to work in the application. 

Can you see a letter on all the terminals? 

 

I havent even taken it out but definitely not correct one. I ordered and new switch and fuel pump rebuild kit. Ill rewire it all according to manuals Ive got. 

[Handy Don 14,312]

2 hours ago, Cjwv1975 said:

t doesnt have the right ignition switch on it, could that be it?  This 854 has a solenoid which should be a 5 pole switch this one has more than that

Since it runs at least some of the time, the ignition switch is not the likeliest cause. With 5 poles, you probably have a switch with an A connection which would normally go unused on an 854 (most have no lights or other electrical accessories 😁). The extra terminal can safely be ignored until you want to add lights or a voltmeter or cigarette lighter!

You can see some wiring diagrams in these documents

 

I’m with @ebinmaine that the likeliest cause of needing choke is a carb blockage. 

Edited August 24 by Handy Don

[rmaynard 16,452]

Hmmm, it runs then stops. Then after awhile it will run again. That sounds like the classic fuel tank cap vent clog syndrome. 

[Cjwv1975 117]

1 hour ago, rmaynard said:

Hmmm, it runs then stops. Then after awhile it will run again. That sounds like the classic fuel tank cap vent clog syndrome. 

Yeah i thought that too but doesnt seem to be that. But Ill check it again.  I didnt touch it today gave me a headache yesterday lol.