No spark

[BHunter 1,651]

Hey guys. 
I just picked up a 1077. The PO says it ran great before he parked it last year. I got it home and can’t get spark. 
tried cleaning the points and ignition terminals. This tractor has a 1969 k301 with starter/generator. I’ve never seen an ignition like this one. It has an internal coil and has points / condenser.  I ordered new points and condenser for it. I’m hoping it works. 
should I get an external coil for it if the new points don’t work?

Thanks in advance for your advice. 

[WHX?? 46,967]

Hello Bob how ya been?!?! 

Something rotten in Denmark here . 1077 should have a 241 with a S/G and battery fired points. Standard 12v ignition coil hanging off the shroud for all the world to see. 

Not sure what you mean about internal coil you mean one under the flywheel?  If so that not gonna work at all. Repoed by a later motor but hard to believe if the S/G was retained. Sounds like some PO cobblements going on here. 

Now you know I gotta admonish you here as '67s are my forte  and you know dang well we like . 

[953 nut 52,062]

Is there a "SPEC #" on your engine?

[BHunter 1,651]

9 minutes ago, WHX?? said:

Hello Bob how ya been?!?! 

Something rotten in Denmark here . 1077 should have a 241 with a S/G and battery fired points. Standard 12v ignition coil hanging off the shroud for all the world to see. 

Not sure what you mean about internal coil you mean one under the flywheel?  If so that not gonna work at all. Repoed by a later motor but hard to believe if the S/G was retained. Sounds like some PO cobblements going on here. 

Now you know I gotta admonish you here as '67s are my forte  and you know dang well we like . 

Hi Jim, 

thanks for responding. I know you are the 67 expert. I love them too. Especially the wood grain decals the 67s have. 
The spark plug wire goes behind the flywheel shroud on this one . 

the cobblements really have me confused. The 1969 k301s don’t have S/G do they? I don’t have a motor pic but can post one tomorrow. 

[BHunter 1,651]

2 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

Is there a "SPEC #" on your engine?

Hi Dick

the spec # is 47176

 

Bob

[pfrederi 17,178]

Magneto Points ignition  one of 3 types Kohler used back then.    Make sure your ignition switch has an "M" terminal.  You do not want voltage applied to it. If i was wired to a battery ignition switch it may have cooked teh magneto. Try disconnecting the wire and crank any spark then?? 

[pfrederi 17,178]

Spec 47176  (Ignition Variation 178) Used Magneto Points but no charge coil on the stator..it has S/G  See mag #7 no charge stator coils

 

Edited January 3, 2022 by pfrederi

[BHunter 1,651]

16 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

Magneto Points ignition  one of 3 types Kohler used back then.    Make sure your ignition switch has an "M" terminal.  You do not want voltage applied to it. If i was wired to a battery ignition switch it may have cooked teh magneto. Try disconnecting the wire and crank any spark then?? 

Thanks for the info. I never owned a Kohler that is set up like this Spec. It didn’t seem right. Someone Changed the ignition switch too. Im hoping the magneto is ok. I will look for the M terminal tomorrow. I want to buy a new ignition switch but im not sure which one I should get for this combination. 
 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,533]

Let us know what switch you have. This is the original 1077 switch for battery ignition. Does the switch have 3 or 4 key positions?

 

[Gregor 4,838]

Wheelhorsepartsandmore  Red Square site supporter and vendor.

 

https://wheelhorsepartsandmore.com/product/4988-7263-starter-generator-key-switch/

[953 nut 52,062]

9 hours ago, BHunter said:

I never owned a Kohler that is set up like this Spec. It didn’t seem right. Someone Changed the ignition switch too. Im hoping the magneto is ok. I will look for the M terminal tomorrow. I want to buy a new ignition switch but im not sure which one I should get for this combination. 

Since this engine started and run for the previous owner with the present configuration my thought would be leave well-enough alone and use the same ignition switch number.

My presumption is that the S/G start function is using a solenoid and a regular "M" ignition switch. If you want to use the factory type ignition switch you could do that by adding a "KILL RELAY" from the "I" terminal to the magneto.  

 

[BHunter 1,651]

9 hours ago, 953 nut said:

Since this engine started and run for the previous owner with the present configuration my thought would be leave well-enough alone and use the same ignition switch number.

My presumption is that the S/G start function is using a solenoid and a regular "M" ignition switch. If you want to use the factory type ignition switch you could do that by adding a "KILL RELAY" from the "I" terminal to the magneto.  

 

Thanks for the info. I am going to put new points and condenser in it when they arrive. Hopefully the PO was being truthful and it will work. 
I really want to change the ignition switch because it doesn’t even attach to the dashboard. It is a giant Troy built switch. There is also a  toggle kill switch mounted to the console. The blue wire in photo is attached to the toggle switch. I’d like to get rid of that too. 
Im not very knowledgeable about electrical systems and I’m grateful for your input. 

[BHunter 1,651]

17 hours ago, gwest_ca said:

Let us know what switch you have. This is the original 1077 switch for battery ignition. Does the switch have 3 or 4 key positions?

 

Thanks for the info! I’m not sure how many positions it has

[953 nut 52,062]

1 hour ago, BHunter said:

I really want to change the ignition switch because it doesn’t even attach to the dashboard. It is a giant Troy built switch. There is also a  toggle kill switch mounted to the console. The blue wire in photo is attached to the toggle switch. I’d like to get rid of that too.

Perhaps it is was functional but I'm with you, scrap the whole electrical system and start from scratch. Here is a wiring system that I hope will be helpful.

[BHunter 1,651]

Today I pulled the flywheel to see if cleaning the magneto magnets would help. Still no spark. I’m waiting for the ignition switch to get here. Hopefully that will help. 

[953 nut 52,062]

Your high tension lead should be attached to the coil like the one in this picture from ISOT. https://isavetractors.com/ignition-coil-for-magneto-ignition-system-for-kohler-k141-k161-k181-k241-k301-engine/

[WHX?? 46,967]

I'm gonna tell you right here and now Bob stop all engines to stop till we get this thing fingered out. First off this is obviously a repo and a true PO cobblement.  While it might be entirety possible to up fit a 12 hp with magneto madness with a SG I wouldn't have a go at it in a million.  They both worked good as designed so let's stay with one or the other. Why mess with success.

Yah SG  fan so I would run it as a 67 motor with the SG. Gut the inner flywheel  mess and wire it as a strait '67 setup with SG. With one of 'Nuts fine wiring diagrams and original style 70 amp switch or the diagram off the IPL/manual. If you want to use  a five term switch fine but will require a start solenoid and possible some extra screwing around with wiring. Richard has got both diagrams. The with going to original wiring would be running heavy guage cables up to the switch. 

You now will have a 1277 incognito. 

Thinkin here a PO mixed a 69 or so Raider 12 but swapped stuff of the original motor.  Or somthing like that. Thing that baffles me for now is why no stator charge  coils ??? 

Quick edit her Bob is a guy has gotta wonder if PO doings may have messed up the S/G and or regulator. Just food for thought that we can get sorted out later. 

 

Edited January 9, 2022 by WHX??

[WHX?? 46,967]

Clear double edit

Edited January 10, 2022 by WHX??

[BHunter 1,651]

17 hours ago, WHX?? said:

 

Hi Jim. 
This is the most unusual set up on this 12hp.  @pfrederi stated there were 3 different ignition set ups for kohler back then.  This Spec # has the Magneto and points . Maybe this motor was never used in a wheel horse but the patina really matches the tractor. It’s been installed for a long time in this horse based on the amount of crud. All the 67s I’ve seen have the external coil and points. 

 Or Maybe someone changed the shroud and it is a 10hp. I don’t know how to identify the block.
I ordered the correct ‘67 ignition switch for it. I will put and external coil on it and scrap the Magneto if it doesn’t spark. 
Im hoping the S/G still works. 
 

[WHX?? 46,967]

Quick easy check of the SG is take a set of jumper cables from a battery. Hit the A terminal with the positive and see if she spins. 

[BHunter 1,651]

16 minutes ago, WHX?? said:

Quick easy check of the SG is take a set of jumper cables from a battery. Hit the A terminal with the positive and see if she spins. 

It spins. Hope it charges now

[pfrederi 17,178]

2 minutes ago, BHunter said:

It spins. Hope it charges now

 Hit it again then remove the power it will coast down for a long time While ii is coasting ground the F terminal should quickly stop the spinning.... That means she tried to charge...

[WHX?? 46,967]

It will then if the reg is ok. If the reg is shot those are a dime a dozen. Just check to make sure the term on the bottom goes to field term and the ground jumper around the rubber mount is good. Forgot about that trick Paul. Good time to listen to the bearings too. 

[BHunter 1,651]

It’s alive!! I cleaned the new points and put a new plug in and it sparked. It energized me to do a carb rebuild and now it runs. Not well but it runs. Can’t rev it up or it dies. Thanks for all of your advice!
Next step is to keep it running and check charging system. 

[JPWH 5,314]

58 minutes ago, BHunter said:

. Can’t rev it up or it dies.

I would look at the grounding on the magneto. I just had this happen to me.

Jay