No spark on K181

[Crmaverick 91]

I picked up a 854 with the original K181 last weekend. It’s been sitting a long time, I got it to crank over but don’t see any spark. I cleaned all the coil connections, generator, and voltage regulator. I have a new set of points and condenser coming. Should I also replace the coil or is there something else I should look into? 
 

Thanks 

[ebinmaine 71,825]

No safety switch on that so that's one thing to check ✅ off. 

 

Do you have a test light?

 

Have you cleaned the existing points?

I'd much rather clean off points than replace. 

 

 

[Crmaverick 91]

2 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

No safety switch on that so that's one thing to check ✅ off. 

 

Do you have a test light?

 

Have you cleaned the existing points?

I'd much rather clean off points than replace. 

 

 

I tried lightly sanding them it looks like there’s not much material left on them. Would a bad coil cause no spark?

[ebinmaine 71,825]

Oh absolutely. But there's certainly a few other possibilities. 

 

This is a quote I saved for my own reference. I believe it is credited to @squonk. 

 

"Go to an auto parts store and get a cheap test light and an inline spark tester.

Confirm no spark first.

If you do not have spark, confirm 12 at coil positive.

If you have 12 volts there, use the test light on coil negative.

While cranking the engine, test light should flash.

If it stays lit points are grounded.

If it stays off, open in coil."

 

[Crmaverick 91]

11 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

Oh absolutely. But there's certainly a few other possibilities. 

 

This is a quote I saved for my own reference. I believe it is credited to @squonk. 

 

"Go to an auto parts store and get a cheap test light and an inline spark tester.

Confirm no spark first.

If you do not have spark, confirm 12 at coil positive.

If you have 12 volts there, use the test light on coil negative.

While cranking the engine, test light should flash.

If it stays lit points are grounded.

If it stays off, open in coil."

 

thanks I have a volt meter, so if I put a lead on the negative coil terminal and then a lead grounded on the frame, I should see 12v while cranking? 

[ebinmaine 71,825]

1 minute ago, Crmaverick said:

thanks I have a volt meter, so if I put a lead on the negative coil terminal and then a lead grounded on the frame, I should see 12v while cranking? 

That depends on the voltmeter/ DVOM. 

Best to use a test light for that particular check because not all meters will register due to rapid changing. 

[ebinmaine 71,825]

A coil can normally be bench tested too. 

 

[squonk 43,361]

A disclaimer: I washed my C-160 one day. Went to put it in the garage and it stalled and wouldn't restart. I blew the engine off with an air hose. Still nothing. Started checking. First thing I checked was that I had no spark. Did the tests and indeed I had a blinking light to the points. Swapped the coil out as I thought maybe water got in it. Still nothing. Took the points cover half way off and blew the air hose right on the points. Put the cover back on and it started up. 

 

So you can have the primary circuit turning on and off with the points and still have an issue with them

[Handy Don 13,683]

1 hour ago, squonk said:

So you can have the primary circuit turning on and off with the points and still have an issue with them

Yep, dampness does wreak havoc with electrical stuff.

[Crmaverick 91]

Good to know I’ll check it all out. Thanks 

[Crmaverick 91]

12 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

That depends on the voltmeter/ DVOM. 

Best to use a test light for that particular check because not all meters will register due to rapid changing. 

I realized that someone had the coil wired backwards, the power from the ignition was wired to the - terminal on the coil, and the points and condenser was wired to the positive.
 

I swapped it around and still had no spark. Would that have fried the coil or something?

 

Also on the lead that goes to + on coil I have 12 volts at the key ignition but somehow at the coil nothing on the + terminal. 
 

Something else is that sometimes it doesn’t turn over at all, I get nothing when I turn the key but I do have 12 volts going to the generator from the ignition, would that be a bad ground connection off the battery? 

 

[ebinmaine 71,825]

1 minute ago, Crmaverick said:

swapped it around and still had no spark. Would that have fried the coil or something

I read just recently that it doesn't matter. 

Can't verify as I've not tried it reversed. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Crmaverick said:

Also on the lead that goes to + on coil I have 12 volts at the key ignition but somehow at the coil nothing on the + terminal. 
 

Something else is that sometimes it doesn’t turn over at all, I get nothing when I turn the key but I do have 12 volts going to the generator from the ignition, would that be a bad ground connection off the battery? 

 

These 2 things would lead me to rewire the tractor. 

 

It's important to remember that these are DC systems. Direct Current. 

Bad ground = no circuit. 

 

 

[Handy Don 13,683]

4 minutes ago, Crmaverick said:

I realized that someone had the coil wired backwards, ...

 

Once I saw this, I would instantly distrust ALL the wiring on the tractor and stop trying to look for a simple solution.

 

Do you have the OM and wiring diagram?  If not, get it from the manual section (search on "tractor 1963 753" for example).

Once you have that, confirm that you understand the from and to of every single wire, test and secure each connection (dielectric grease is a good idea), and as you go confirm that you have power where the diagram indicates there should be power and ground where there should be ground. At some point you'll be heard saying "Eureka" or "Aha" or something more colorful when you hit the first spot with a problem. Don't stop. Keep going until you've checked it all.

 

Good luck

[Crmaverick 91]

27 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

 

Once I saw this, I would instantly distrust ALL the wiring on the tractor and stop trying to look for a simple solution.

 

Do you have the OM and wiring diagram?  If not, get it from the manual section (search on "tractor 1963 753" for example).

Once you have that, confirm that you understand the from and to of every single wire, test and secure each connection (dielectric grease is a good idea), and as you go confirm that you have power where the diagram indicates there should be power and ground where there should be ground. At some point you'll be heard saying "Eureka" or "Aha" or something more colorful when you hit the first spot with a problem. Don't stop. Keep going until you've checked it all.

 

Good luck

I do have a 854 wiring diagram. I have it all wired up as shown here. Cleaned all connections and added dielectric grease. I am using a jumper cable for my  negative battery terminal to ground since I don’t have the wire yet, not sure if that may be an issue. 

[Crmaverick 91]

 

Picture of wiring. It’s following the correct terminals off the ignition switch. 
 

I - Goes to + on coil

S - Top terminal on Gen

B - Hooks to + on battery

 

voltage regulator has whip to bottom terminal. Amp meter is disconnected. Points and condenser to negative on coil. 

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Crmaverick

[Handy Don 13,683]

 

Are you sure the S/G housing is well grounded to the engine?

Looks to me like switch S is going to the bottom terminal on the S/G?

What is the extra wire from the S/G going to the regulator? It isn't on the diagram and yet it seems to belong!

I'm not familiar with S/G and electromagnetic regulators' wiring though, so hope someone who is can confirm more closely.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Handy Don

[Crmaverick 91]

30 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

 

Are you sure the S/G housing is well grounded to the engine?

Looks to me like switch S is going to the bottom terminal on the S/G?

What is the extra wire from the S/G going to the regulator? It isn't on the diagram and yet it seems to belong!

I'm not familiar with S/G and electromagnetic regulators' wiring though, so hope someone who is can confirm more closely.

The S terminal is the thicker red wire coming off the switch onto the top of the Gen. the way I’m looking at the diagram the other small wire off the voltage regulator is on the diagram on the bottom terminal of the S/G
 

 

[Handy Don 13,683]

9 minutes ago, Crmaverick said:

The S terminal is the thicker red wire coming off the switch onto the top of the Gen. the way I’m looking at the diagram the other small wire off the voltage regulator is on the diagram on the bottom terminal of the S/G

Not sure which terminal is which on the S/G. Sorry.

 

This wire (red arrow) is making me curious.

[Crmaverick 91]

50 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

Not sure which terminal is which on the S/G. Sorry.

 

This wire (red arrow) is making me curious.

That’s some factory wire it’s not on the diagram 

[ebinmaine 71,825]

2 hours ago, Crmaverick said:

Amp meter is disconnected

How's this done?

Is there a jumper or are the 2 wires to the meter connected?

 

What are you using for a negative battery cable?

 

 

[Crmaverick 91]

22 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

How's this done?

Is there a jumper or are the 2 wires to the meter connected?

 

What are you using for a negative battery cable?

 

 

The amp meter on the dash board of the tractor is disconnected, does that need to be hooked up? 
 

im using a battery jumper cable as the negative from battery negative to block 

[ebinmaine 71,825]

Ammeter itself doesn't need to be in there. The wire going through it however, certainly does. 

You can bypass the ammeter by connecting both of the terminals to the same stud on the meter. 

 

 

[ebinmaine 71,825]

8 hours ago, Handy Don said:

Not sure which terminal is which on the S/G. Sorry.

 

This wire (red arrow) is making me curious.

Most S/G terminals are actually labeled right on the connection tab or near it. 

 

7 hours ago, Crmaverick said:

That’s some factory wire it’s not on the diagram 

 

Where exactly does that go??

 

The ONLY wire I've noted not being on the factory schematic is the one that goes from VR to under itself on the S/G. 

 

 

The negative cable should be fine as a battery jumper as long as the squeeze clamps are well "chewed in" to what they're on. Likely you're ok there given that the engine will turn over.  

[ebinmaine 71,825]

8 hours ago, Handy Don said:

Not sure which terminal is which on the S/G. Sorry.

 

This wire (red arrow) is making me curious.

 

Don you've got 3 terminals left to right in this pic. (The right one is behind the battery cable). 

Left. Lights/accessories. 

Middle. Feeds back to battery positive through ammeter. 

Right. To S/G for powering ((fields??)). 

 

 

@Crmaverick that extra wire isn't factory. That's a PO add-on from the past. 

 

[ebinmaine 71,825]

10 hours ago, Crmaverick said:

Also on the lead that goes to + on coil I have 12 volts at the key ignition but somehow at the coil nothing on the + terminal. 

 

2 things to do here. 

Remove, clean and reinstall both ends of that wire. 

Using the Continuity setting on your DVOM check that wire on and off the tractor. 

 

While it's off the tractor and in your hands connected to the DVOM shake/twist/move it around to check for inconsistency or breaks in the continuity.