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DVail2000

Onan Engine Swap P2-16 to ???

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DVail2000

Ok, So I am seeing that most of you are leaning towards the ONAN engines being crap.  That said, I have 2 416's  # 1 is a -8 and # 2 is a -H.  Both have the -216 in them.  i was thinking of rebuilding the engine from the 416-H, but I am also considering changing the engine out with a different type.  What are the recomendations? I am seeing Koler, what else will fit?

 

 

Thanks

 

Dave.

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Maxwell-8
Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, DVail2000 said:

ONAN engines being crap

:angry-steamingears:NOT TRUE!  Just need some more looking after, for sure better then any chinees made engine.   CAST IRON baby!

 

But :text-welcomeconfetti: on :rs:

 

Kohler's will fit But you will have less HP. Except if you find a M16 like in my C175.

 

You could make any Horizontal shaft 1 cylinder fit and some 2 cylinders. But You will like lose Your PTO system. If you ain't going kohler or onan.

Edited by Maxwell-8
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Bill D

How many hours on them?  I fixed a few issues on mine and it runs great.  Care to chime in @onanparts.com

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kpinnc
Posted (edited)

Onans are exceptional engines. When you have a good one, you can certainly keep it that way. They just require a bit more care to keep them in good shape. Cast iron Kohler singles are far more forgiving and require only simple maintenance. Rebuild cost for either is crazy expensive, and the Onans are higher. Per cylinder parts are probably about the same.

 

Onan and Kohler twins do not have ball bearing supported cranks. That always bothered me a bit- but so long as the oil pressure is good they are fine.

 

All depends on what you want. I picked up three "free" Vanguard V twins, so I use them regularly. They are the only horizontal shaft engine I know of that still use ball bearings on the PTO shaft. The vertical engines do not have bearings. I've heard the Predator V twin has bearings, but I can't confirm it.

 

V-twins won't keep you from using a WH PTO. You just have to find a pulley and inner race with a 1 inch ID. They are out there. 

Edited by kpinnc
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DVail2000

I received the 416-H as a project.  It was a rolling frame and 3 milk crates full of motor and parts.  Just trying to figure out my options. before I start putting it together.

 

Dave

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Tuneup

I love my P216. It just takes a little more TLC than a Kohler and the torque output is wonderful.

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Snoopy11
22 hours ago, Maxwell-8 said:

:angry-steamingears:NOT TRUE!  Just need some more looking after, for sure better then any chinees made engine.   CAST IRON baby!

 

But :text-welcomeconfetti: on :rs:

 

Kohler's will fit But you will have less HP. Except if you find a M16 like in my C175.

 

You could make any Horizontal shaft 1 cylinder fit and some 2 cylinders. But You will like lose Your PTO system. If you ain't going kohler or onan.

Not trying to argue or anything here... but the choice of engines makes no difference if you are able to install Billet Rods which are WAY stronger than cast.

 

On top of that, Billet rods allow you to install rod bearing inserts, so if you ever have issues with oil clearance, chances are you will just have to replace the bearing insert, rather than the whole rod.

 

Cast iron is fine... nothing wrong with it, but it is not bullet-proof. Once you have seen a cast iron rod shatter, you begin to realize just how weak cast really is.

 

Don

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Snoopy11
23 hours ago, DVail2000 said:

Ok, So I am seeing that most of you are leaning towards the ONAN engines being crap.  That said, I have 2 416's  # 1 is a -8 and # 2 is a -H.  Both have the -216 in them.  i was thinking of rebuilding the engine from the 416-H, but I am also considering changing the engine out with a different type.  What are the recomendations? I am seeing Koler, what else will fit?

 

 

Thanks

 

Dave.

Got one question for you, there Dave. What CC engine are you referring to?

 

(Onan, Ducar, Predator, Duromax, Massimo, Troy, Champion, Honda, Kohler) etc... all engines based on the same platform. Whether the cast rods are strong as something such as a Honda... is debatable... and there are lesser versions of cast iron used in these engines... but... the biggest problem in these engines is oil clearance. These engines are built on assembly lines and crankshaft clearances are not important to manufacturers... (even Honda). The rod bolts themselves are brittle, compared to something such as ARP rod bolts. However, for the average guy running 3,600-3,800 rpm, ...these engines will sit and run forever. BUT when you start pressuring these engines, making them grunt... etc... that is where cast rods are subject to breakage... and oil clearances become more of an issue. What causes rod breakage is lack of oil clearance (or altogether lack of oil) and lugging the engine. Obviously, lugging the engine is... part of having a tractor. But you have to understand... there is no engine that can be bought on the market that is bulletproof. Truthfully... you can't even MAKE it bulletproof, but you can make it last quite a bit longer with billet internals, (or at least a billet rod).

 

Tell me your horsepower range and goals. I will be happy to help/offer more information if possible. I also know quite a bit about engine combinations and billet internals (if this is something you might consider), so feel free to ask as many questions as you wish.

 

I just wouldn't buy into any bull crap about 'buying a more expensive engine makes it last longer.' This simply isn't true when you start opening these engines up and comparing...

 

Don

 

 

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Snoopy11
21 hours ago, kpinnc said:

Onans are exceptional engines. When you have a good one, you can certainly keep it that way. They just require a bit more care to keep them in good shape. Cast iron Kohler singles are far more forgiving and require only simple maintenance. Rebuild cost for either is crazy expensive, and the Onans are higher. Per cylinder parts are probably about the same.

 

Onan and Kohler twins do not have ball bearing supported cranks. That always bothered me a bit- but so long as the oil pressure is good they are fine.

 

All depends on what you want. I picked up three "free" Vanguard V twins, so I use them regularly. They are the only horizontal shaft engine I know of that still use ball bearings on the PTO shaft. The vertical engines do not have bearings. I've heard the Predator V twin has bearings, but I can't confirm it.

 

V-twins won't keep you from using a WH PTO. You just have to find a pulley and inner race with a 1 inch ID. They are out there. 

Predator v twins do have ball bearing supported cranks. You can also buy billet rods for the predator v twins.

 

I actually just used a multi pulley on my tractor, so Kpinnc is right... they do exist.

 

The problem with Kohler singles, (the majority of them) is the throttle hookup... as on most of their single cylinder engines... there is no throttle hookup. If this isn't a problem, then a Kohler single may work great! (there may be Kohler singles with throttle hookups... but I personally have not found one).

 

One engine that I forgot to mention is Tillotson... (very good engine for the price). I would personally consider going with the Mark ii engine from ec carburetors. I have bought/built Tillotson engines and really like them, reinforced blocks, heavy duty flywheels... etc.

 

Again, I don't know what power level you are looking to achieve, so recommendations are speculative. Feel free to give more information, Dave!

 

Don

 

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Maxwell-8

@Snoopy11  We not tying to rev our engine over 3600 rpms here  But with cast iron I mean the cast iron block.  They are much stronger then those alloy blocks. Have seen Kohler courages just tear the block even on low hours. 

 

 

Of course a built engine is much stronger Billet internals, that is what they do to race engines as well. 

59 minutes ago, Snoopy11 said:

(there may be Kohler singles with throttle hookups... but I personally have not found one

Yes there is on the stationary engine models. 

 

In addition I love good old American built engines.  :flags-waveusa:   

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kpinnc
6 hours ago, Snoopy11 said:

 

I actually just used a multi pulley on my tractor, so Kpinnc is right... they do exist.

Also some B/C or 300 series machines that used a K181 or even some Briggs engines had a 1 inch PTO shaft. The 5.25 drive pulley with a 1 inch bore are harder to find, but they are out there.

 

Also as Snoopy11 said, there are tons of options out there.

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Snoopy11
On 6/20/2021 at 4:12 PM, Maxwell-8 said:

@Snoopy11  We not tying to rev our engine over 3600 rpms here 

Understood... ... and I think you understand my point as well... you can buy an el-cheapo motor and buy quality parts for it and make it last double and triple the time that the most expensive stock motor you can find. I have personally done this... and highly recommend... even for low RPM builds where engine grunting is a variable. In my humble opinion... why not go ahead (when the engine is new) and virtually eliminate rod failure...?

 

As someone who has run 9,000 rpm on both alloy and cast blocks and have never cracked a block... --knock on wood... I personally wouldn't worry about cracking a block... but this is just a grease-monkey's 2 cents...:banana-wrench:

 

I have personally broken stock cast rods at 3,600 rpm in my zero turn as well as lawn tractor. You make an engine grunt enough times... it'll break. 

This is also what happened to my original Tecumseh engine on my tractor...

 

A lot of people will say "I ran my cast rods for 20 years (or more) and never broke a rod."

 

But... a lot of people have broke rods on tractors and such equipment...

 

Another thing to consider... not all governors on these engines are exactly 3,600 rpm. Governors on these engines (all of the ones I mentioned in my above post) are often set at 3,600 all the way to 3800rpm - 4000rpm depending on brand of engine. Important to consider. I have ran quite a few engines on different equipment, and run them at the manufacturer's set throttle with my hardline tachometer attached... and each engine's rpm is different.

 

I'll get of my engine soap-box now. Hopefully someone finds some of this interesting though!

 

Don

 

 

 

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Snoopy11
On 6/20/2021 at 9:14 PM, kpinnc said:

Also some B/C or 300 series machines that used a K181 or even some Briggs engines had a 1 inch PTO shaft. The 5.25 drive pulley with a 1 inch bore are harder to find, but they are out there.

 

Also as Snoopy11 said, there are tons of options out there.

I might be wrong.. but doesn't the K181 use a balance shaft...?

 

Don

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