Going back to a key ignition

[DCwom 78]

In the process of installing a new throttle cable on my Dad's Raider 12 I pulled out one of his crimp connectors to the push button ignition switch, then while trying to unscrew the switch terminals it fell apart... I wasn't planning on fixing/restoring the electrical just yet, but now I guess I have to. It looks like he ditched the key ignition switch at some point and repurposed the headlight switch as an engine on/off switch then put a push start button in what was probably the cigarette lighter hole on the panel. I imagine he salvaged that push button from a deceased horse. In any case I might as well go back to a key ignition. The Raider 12 wiring diagram looks pretty simple (if I have the correct one?) and it only needs a 3 terminal key ignition with Start, Battery and Magneto wires, does this sound about right? While I'm at it I need to replace his zip cord and wire nut /crimp connector wiring. The motor has points & condenser.

Edited May 26, 2021 by DCwom
Addition ingition type

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,323]

The key switch must be one that can handle the heavy starter load and the reason for the 6 gauge wires.

If you add a solenoid you can use a less expensive ignition switch and lighter wires to do the same job.

This should be what you started out with. Click on the picture of the tractor. Added a diagram of the switch/solenoid conversion.

Garry

[953 nut 58,697]

Since you have no safety switches to worry about here is a basic wiring diagram which uses an inexpensive 103-991 key switch.

I mistakenly posted the battery ignition system.                       Thanks Garry for pointing this out.

 

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by 953 nut

[pacer 3,176]

Sounds like the wirings in many of the horses we find "out behind the barn/field/shed,etc" and @953 nut and @gwest_ca are giving you the simplest way to get her back going. I dont think I ever bought that a horse that had all (any?) 0f the safety switches working. That wiring diagram shown is what I do to virtually all of my buys. Plus, the 5 pole switch can be had at most of the car parts places (I get mine at OReillys for some $12-15)

 

[Mike'sHorseBarn 3,169]

Glad I saw this thread. I have a Raider 12 like yours and the key switch is shot. I saw a switch on ebay that would work as a direct replacement, but it was almost $40. I'm thinking of adding a solenoid and getting a cheaper switch, I just wasn't sure where I would mount the solenoid that it would look ok.

 

[biged77 113]

Make sure you have the correct wiring diagram.  The engine may be a repower since you say it has points and condenser (not magneto ignition).

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,323]

Early 1968 production used Kohler K301S-4712b with starter/generator and battery ignition.

Late 1968 production used Kohler K301S-47147b with Bendix starter, 10 amp alternator and magneto ignition with points and condenser.

 

Garry

[DCwom 78]

5 hours ago, gwest_ca said:

Early 1968 production used Kohler K301S-4712b with starter/generator and battery ignition.

Late 1968 production used Kohler K301S-47147b with Bendix starter, 10 amp alternator and magneto ignition with points and condenser.

 

Garry

Yup, looks like a late 1969 motor, and it has a solenoid on the starter

[953 nut 58,697]

Please see edited post #3, I had posted the wrong drawing earlier. Garry is the best.  

[DennisThornton 4,771]

20 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

Please see edited post #3, I had posted the wrong drawing earlier. Garry is the best.  

We need to clone Garry!

This forum is awesome but it wouldn't be the same without Garry!

[pfrederi 18,454]

My Charger/Electros with 47147C engines do not have solenoids. Direct wire heavy duty ignition switch.  Your solenoid does not look original, but will work with the cheaper 5 pin switch.

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by pfrederi

[Gregor 4,847]

17 hours ago, biged77 said:

it has points and condenser (not magneto ignition).

[DCwom 78]

1 hour ago, Gregor said:

Actually I was looking at the wiring diagram by 953 nut and I realized there is no charging system on my Raider 12, at least no regulator or wiring I can find! I suppose the starter could be a starter/generator but it would have to feedback though the solenoid to charge. I know my dad was always charging the batteries on his horses, but didn't know why.

 

Another thing I can't figure out is the starter solenoid, he has wired (via a push button switch) the starter side of the solenoid to the solenoid control lug, i.e. shorting the solenoid control lug to the starter lug causes the starter to engage, this is not what I'd expect? Are solenoids activated by grounding the control lug or applying 12VDC? I need to bring my voltmeter with me next time to see voltages and try to determine if he was really running off of battery the whole time.

[Gregor 4,847]

Another thing I can't figure out is the starter solenoid, he has wired (via a push button switch) the starter side of the solenoid to the solenoid control lug, i.e. shorting the solenoid control lug to the starter lug causes the starter to engage, this is not what I'd expect? (He has apparently added a 2nd solenoid to accomadate his push button switch, although I'm not sure why.)Are solenoids activated by grounding the control lug or applying 12VDC? ( Not all solenoids are the same. some need a ground, some are self grounding) I need to bring my voltmeter with me next time to see voltages and try to determine if he was really running off of battery the whole time. In order for that to happen, he has to have a coil mounted somewhere. Where does the spark plug wire go when it leaves the spark plug? I switched my 8HP to battery ignition, but I added a coil.

[DCwom 78]

29 minutes ago, Gregor said:

Another thing I can't figure out is the starter solenoid, he has wired (via a push button switch) the starter side of the solenoid to the solenoid control lug, i.e. shorting the solenoid control lug to the starter lug causes the starter to engage, this is not what I'd expect? (He has apparently added a 2nd solenoid to accomadate his push button switch, although I'm not sure why.)Are solenoids activated by grounding the control lug or applying 12VDC? ( Not all solenoids are the same. some need a ground, some are self grounding) I need to bring my voltmeter with me next time to see voltages and try to determine if he was really running off of battery the whole time. In order for that to happen, he has to have a coil mounted somewhere. Where does the spark plug wire go when it leaves the spark plug? I switched my 8HP to battery ignition, but I added a coil.

I don't see a 2nd solenoid, only the one over the starter. I've scratched out the wiring diagram as I see it (attached pdf).

Raider Wiring.pdf

[squonk 43,013]

Some solenoids are activated by grounding it. My 701 with starter gen and push button was like that. When the starter button was pushed. It completed the solenoid coil circuit to ground so it would close it's contacts.

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by squonk

[Gregor 4,847]

You are right. Just 1 solenoid. I was mistaking that silver colored starter for a 2nd. solenoid. My bad. It's obviously battery ignition, which I think is a good thing. I see what appears to be several switches. Which is the push button?  The one in the black circle? Are the others going to your key switch?

 

[DCwom 78]

48 minutes ago, Gregor said:

You are right. Just 1 solenoid. I was mistaking that silver colored starter for a 2nd. solenoid. My bad. It's obviously battery ignition, which I think is a good thing. I see what appears to be several switches. Which is the push button?  The one in the black circle? Are the others going to your key switch?

 

 

Black circle push button starter switch which broke.

Green circle the repurposed headlight switch as the on/off switch.

Brown & Yellow is the battery.

 

I'm hoping I can wire everything to a key switch, one-stop shopping...

 

I still need to figure out battery charging. I have 2 other Kohler engines I can steal from (3 if I attack the 1054), but I'm not sure the right path at the moment, I could just "plug it in" to the trickle charge after each use, like everything else these days.

 

 

[Gregor 4,847]

Since you seem to have battery ignition, and you are not concerned about safety switches, all you really need is this. Auto Zone  $29  It has 4 terminals. Battery  Ignition,  Accessories,  Starter

 

  In your first post, you mentioned magneto ignition. ??????  If you do in fact have magneto ignition, this switch will cook it. If I am wrong about ANY of this I hope someone jumps in. In your first post, you mentioned magneto ignition.

 

[biged77 113]

Apparently the early magneto ignitions used points and condenser without being fed from the battery.  I have 400 series magnums which do not.  I am learning. 

On 5/26/2021 at 7:43 PM, DCwom said:

Late 1968 production used Kohler K301S-47147b with Bendix starter, 10 amp alternator and magneto ignition with points and condenser.

 

 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,323]

Your engine 47147C originally had breakerless ignition. It must have failed so was changed to battery ignition meaning the diagrams we posted above are not correct.

Made a correction to your diagram

 

Garry

 

[DCwom 78]

43 minutes ago, gwest_ca said:

Your engine 47147C originally had breakerless ignition. It must have failed so was changed to battery ignition meaning the diagrams we posted above are not correct.

Made a correction to your diagram

 

Garry

 

Yeah, it could have been something different, the paint behind the coil shows a shadow and there are some open holes where maybe something was mounted.

 

As for the modified drawing, that is how I "thought" the started switch would have been wired (+12 to the control lug) as well, but the switch really does short the solenoid control lug to the starter! After the switch broke I shorted the two together and the starter turned the motor over! I'm wondering if pulling the solenoid control to ground (or near ground) through the starter motor windings is enough to trigger the solenoid (assuming the solenoid is active low). I image that the windings can't be more than a few ohms of resistance.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,323]

If it is a solenoid that requires the small terminal to be grounded to activate it the large lugs on the solenoid are identified as STARTER and BATTERY.

 

Garry