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BeninCT

Metallic whine from 310-8

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stevasaurus

@peter lena  I just want to say, "I respect your opinion."  So don't take any criticism to heart, I'm sure it was not meant that way...and if it was me...I know it was not meant that way.  Here is a shot of my 702.  One of the 1533 bearings let loose, which is why I opened it.  My Dad bought this used, guessing late 60's...used it for maybe 15-20 years.  It then sat in the pole barn until I dug it out around 2007.  Since it was my Dad's, and I knew nothing about Wheel Horses, I got it running and used it until the bearing failed.  This is why I am not a fan of flushing, except to make the job of opening the trans a cleaner job.  I get a lot of flack for that thinking, because not everybody wants to open their trans, just to take a look.  I understand that, but remember I though this 702 was clean.  For some reason these transmissions crave condensation, I know, I have opened up nearly 20 of them.  The number that you could get away with a flush, you could count on one hand.  Imagine this...you flush a trans with diesel, it breaks loose some sludge and contaminated oil.  You drain it and maybe flush it again, until it come out clean.  Some of the sludge is now in the bearings, some may have gotten down the axle tube past the #1533 bearings.  Do you really think that is going to flush out of the axle tubes??  If you have made a good investment in a Horse, then it makes since to try to see what is really in that trans.  Engines are different.  I hope this gives you an insight of my experience.  I want you on my side, not at each other.  :occasion-xmas:

702 transmission 001.jpg

702 transmission 004.jpg

702 transmission 005.jpg

 

This is now rebuilt and clean.  You know what?  I did this in like 2011, it has been 9 years, I should take a look inside.  This horse does not sit out side.

702 transmission 033.jpg

 

702 transmission 032.jpg

 

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peter lena

HANDY DON, not a problem, but I  just look at an issue differently , usually looking at the repetition of a problem , my first thought is to plan on making the problem go away . initially doing what I can do to see how it functions , make it better , make it bombproof . the used horses I picked up , were so dysfunctional and neglected , it was hard to imagine  how anyone could see that as ok . like carving a horse out of a pile of solid neglect. at each gain and improvement , I  marveled at the ease of function , and verified what I had done to get there . my 82 C-85  AKA , frakenhorse  , bought new, is full of changes and experiments , its also my test bed ,for my other 2 horses. they all have the same set up , and run with total ease , that's how  I  like to have my stuff . any problem is looked at as the opportunity to eliminate the issue . that's only me , but I  ALSO LOVE TO ROAD TEST AND DETAIL A CHANGE , PETE  

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peter lena

STEVASAURUS, thank you for the feed back and the pictures and your view on gear box cleaning / flushing. no problem on the opinion issue, your gear box pictures say it all about a long sitting used trans , the oil changes I have done , just steadily improved an unseen dirty issue , always used the , heat up time  as a time to drop oil .even if you only did that without flushing , a fresh oil would benefit the entire , gear train. BTW , I  appreciate  your insight and comments , pete

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BeninCT

So I don’t have a pic of my oil but its mostly oil colored with a little light brown in it.  Bought 4 gallons of cheap oil today and I am going to do a few oil changes over the winter and see how that sound changes if at all but it doesnt look anywhere near as bad as the innards of what you pictured @stevasaurus !! Thankfully.  Just happy you posted here for me- always fun to learn.

 

Don’t have enough experience to take a side but this isn’t Washington its tractors!  I did inspect my shift boot and its mint so must just be condensation... I guess.  

 

Is there a vent for the case?  

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1FB52629-CE7F-4080-B409-220466865F8B.jpeg

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Handy Don
18 minutes ago, BeninCT said:

Is there a vent for the case?

The hooked handle of the dipstick is hollow and is the vent for the transmission case. Good idea to make sure it isn't kinked or obstructed (e.g. if someone painted it :wacko:).

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peter lena

HANDY DON, not a problem, but I  just look at an issue differently , usually looking at the repetition of a problem , my first thought is to plan on making the problem go away . initially doing what I can do to see how it functions , make it better , make it bombproof . the used horses I picked up , were so dysfunctional and neglected , it was hard to imagine  how anyone could see that as ok . like carving a horse out of a pile of solid neglect. at each gain and improvement , I  marveled at the ease of function , and verified what I had done to get there . my 82 C-85  AKA , frakenhorse  , bought new, is full of changes and experiments , its also my test bed ,for my other 2 horses. they all have the same set up , and run with total ease , that's how  I  like to have my stuff . any problem is looked at as the opportunity to eliminate the issue . that's only me , but I  ALSO LOVE TO ROAD TEST AND DETAIL A CHANGE , PETE  

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peter lena

BENINCT, agree with handy don, on the vent issue, amazing to see the response to the gear oil , issue. but if nothing else, its a heads up on the lubrication maintenance of your horse. thanks for the rear end hitch frame picture, I am using  combined ideas to make mine. the extended, combined boxed strength is what you have ,and want. as a base line , I would replace the shift boot , that way related areas are fresh. use a razor blade to cut off , and grease on the shifter to slide on , makes it easy.  note the pieces of related linkage in the area? you can add washes and lubrication to each point to firm them up and increase function, (   if  you want to  ) eliminate rust , increase lubrication , just an idea . lubricate any and all clutch related movement points , take off your  PTO SIDE ,belt guard and lubricate any movement point , watch the rust run out . this my experience , to make things better, good luck with your baseline improvements , keep in touch , pete 

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WHX24

I see you met the Dino our resident gear jamming transmission expert Ben.  He is my transmission mentor as well. Yes he does love tearing into them and knows what goes on in them. If it wasn't for him I could have never saved this one. The other fellas have seen this pic a few times and I have other ones to do almost as bad as this but keep procrastinating. :) This one ended up being very whining due to the gears missing lots of metal but she is just a show putt around tractor and occasional worker as a tub puller. 

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Edited by WHX24
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BeninCT

OK been busy with work but finally changed the oil and did a little more inspection.  Appears to be more brown than oil color than I initially thought...  Will change it a couple times and see what remains after.  It works perfectly and shifts very easily so there is nothing odd about its operation except this gear whine that I see now is only in 3rd (hi- didnt try it in low).  I am going to attach a couple pics and a video to see if anyone here has any thoughts.

Simplest thing I have yet to try is to remove the belt guard/guide visible below the foot board because the back edge of it appears to be rubbing the belt and making a shiny corner on the belt.  Would be great if that was the noise but please listen to this video and let me know what you think.  @Handy Don @WHX24 @peter lena @stevasaurus  Thank you all for weighing in here. 

 

Still need to jack up rear and check for bearing play and thought I might put it in gear with the wheels off the ground so I could put a long screwdriver against things and use it as a stethoscope to narrow down the source.  Doesnt help that years of shooting and carpentry has made me deaf in my R ear though...

 

Oil after oil change and 15 mins of operations- kinda muddy....

 

 

 

4501EC44-A317-4FC1-AC1A-D23462FE36AA.jpeg

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stevasaurus

I think that sound is coming from under the belt guard.  Maybe your tension pulley is bouncing a little and the belt is bouncing on the bottom of your guard.  You might have a weak spring on the clutch pedal.  It doesn't sound like it is the transmission.

   The oil looks very good.  :occasion-xmas:

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peter lena

BEN  I  agree with STEVASAURUS, on the possible belt guard issue , that bouncing gear / drive  sound , is like a weak pulley tension spring possibility to me. the oil looks good, but just moving over flat ground that bouncing gear whine will probably show up in the belt guard removal point. those  rear jack stands , sound like the visual  and run / watch answer to  the entire operation. think its the pulley tension spring , also check out the idler pulley for noisy bearings, pete 

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Handy Don

:text-yeahthat:

FWIW, I agree that it is either a loose pulley on the transmission input shaft (check the set screw), a loose tensioner pulley (again, set screw), or a bad bearing in the tensioner pulley. I didn't see any bounce in the tensioner, though, so it could also be the tensioner pivot shaft is has some play as well.  

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WHX24

I dunno fellas ... sounds an awful like the transmission in the 1055 but do check the belt guard, externals  & such.

Does it do it in all gears & Hi/Lo range? Worse in 2nd or 3rd?   If possible drop a magnet in the first drain oil and let it sit and see what it collects ... just for an experiment. Oil does look ok tho. 

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BeninCT
22 minutes ago, WHX24 said:

I dunno fellas ... sounds an awful like the transmission in the 1055 but do check the belt guard, externals  & such.

Does it do it in all gears & Hi/Lo range? Worse in 2nd or 3rd?   If possible drop a magnet in the first drain oil and let it sit and see what it collects ... just for an experiment. Oil does look ok tho. 

 

So, I have to jack it up and wiggle everything around and run it so I can listen.  I only hear it in 3rd though is the weird thing- only tried hi gear not lo yet but the belt speed never changes right? (Right?)... hoping its just the belt!  

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ebinmaine
1 hour ago, BeninCT said:

belt speed never changes right

Correct. 

The noise may be evident in 3rd because 3rd is the issue.... Or because the harmonic resonance in 3rd creates that vibration... Or because the rest of the unit is quiet enough while in top gear to let you hear it.  

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BeninCT
7 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

Correct. 

The noise may be evident in 3rd because 3rd is the issue.... Or because the harmonic resonance in 3rd creates that vibration... Or because the rest of the unit is quiet enough while in top gear to let you hear it.  

Will try it on smooth asphalt in hi/low before the jack me up trick.  Good points tho thx

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BeninCT

So ran it on jacks and smooth asphalt and there is no noise on the jack but it persists on flat asphalt even without the belt guard and is only an issue in hi/3rd so its coming from the rear end... it really sounds like gear whine to me so it must have something to do with that 3rd gear at higher speeds.  

 

Big question is: should I ignore it and run it or will that make it worse?  Having just changed the gear oil I think I should run it for a couple hours and see if it goes away with use and if not then tear into it...  

 

These are straight cut gears all on a single shaft correct?  Seems odd that one would be so loud unless someone ground the teeth off it shifting before stopping a million times.   I have a borescope that I could put down in there and see what I see.  Maybe I will try that and share the video here. 

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Handy Don
4 minutes ago, BeninCT said:

it really sounds like gear whine to me so it must have something to do with that 3rd gear at higher speeds

Having taken away the "easier to get to" options, I agree. Good luck

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ebinmaine

Third gear has been known to be worn out by people shifting back and forth. 

 

I like that borescope video idea. If you could post it to YouTube that would be awesome. 

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BeninCT
1 hour ago, ebinmaine said:

Third gear has been known to be worn out by people shifting back and forth. 

 

I like that borescope video idea. If you could post it to YouTube that would be awesome. 

It was $20 on amazon and it has a camera with led light on it that is about 5/16” diameter x 1” long with a 1/16” cable that is like 10’ long and it transmits its video via its own wifi to an app on your phone.  Very easy to use and have looked into turbos, down exhaust passages on cylinder heads and all kinds of places.  Usually you really don’t like what you find though because if something wasn’t wrong you wouldn’t be sticking a Chinese camera up your engines a** lol.  

 

Like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Endoscope-Wireless-Borescope-Inspection-Flexible/dp/B07Z8SQ6T5/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=Endoscope+wifi&qid=1610656947&sr=8-9

 

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oliver2-44

Those cell phone bore scopes are great. I bought that same one for a plumbing problem.  Copper pipe had a pin hole inside the wall, but water was showing up quite a distance from the actual leak.  Drilled a number of 5/16" holes doing detective work!. of course i was definitely thinking of what else I could use it on besides plumbing!   

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peter lena

BEN,  think getting some hours , if possible  road time , will be the best gain , I  have noticed that  any service goes thru a transition from where it was to where it is now. its rarely an instant change. just the fact that you are addressing the noise issue is a good thing. when i had a similar noise , it was the pulley bearing , changed mine over to a same size pulley , with a much bigger bearing , and bronze 3/8 insert , with hi temp grease. also went after any related linkage hang up, if you start to notice  ANY NOISE / MOTION LEVEL  CHANGE, you are on the way . that's what I , noticed , heard . I have 3  closed cul de sacs , inside of  a 1/4 mi  of me. use them when they are empty , so i don,t bother people with possible drive buys , like my own test track , always bring a tool bag and any possible related help to correct a problem .  that's  how I  chase down a problem.  that's only me , pete     

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