Large treadle grindstone build

[DennisThornton 4,769]

More to come?  Water drip?  Trough?

 

[DennisThornton 4,769]

1 minute ago, formariz said:

Great site thank you.

It is a great site!  I've mentioned it here before but I should probably share more of the better tools.

[formariz 11,849]

1 minute ago, DennisThornton said:

More to come?  Water drip?  Trough?

 

Yes. A little far from being done. Water drip, trough to prevent water from falling underneath it, clothes guard (they will stain your shirt while being used), fully adjustable tool rest to be used from either side, handle to crank by hand, reworking of wheel or wheels to allow me to move it alone, perfecting of seat adjustment and finally dressing of whole unit such as chanfering edges, rounding handles,etc.

[DennisThornton 4,769]

Cool!  I'll be standing nearby!

[ebinmaine 63,148]

4 hours ago, DennisThornton said:

Cool!  I'll be standing nearby!

Me too

[formariz 11,849]

Worked on it for a little while today. Got fully adjustable tool test done and clothes guard.

 

 

[formariz 11,849]

Getting close. Trough and drip can completed. One more curved brace , wheels and handle left.

 

 

 

 

[DennisThornton 4,769]

Wonderful in every detail!

Can't remember seeing a "Clothes guard" or a wooden trough, but I suppose many had them and they fell victims to being outdoors.  Most setups that I've seen were iron or just the stone.

 

I saw a youtube dressing a stone with a diamond wheeled grinder.  Pretty bad to start and pretty nice at the end.  Your stone looks much better but if it needed a touch up it's doable.

 

As always, very nice and thanks for sharing!

[formariz 11,849]

1 hour ago, DennisThornton said:

Wonderful in every detail!

Can't remember seeing a "Clothes guard" or a wooden trough, but I suppose many had them and they fell victims to being outdoors.  Most setups that I've seen were iron or just the stone.

 

I saw a youtube dressing a stone with a diamond wheeled grinder.  Pretty bad to start and pretty nice at the end.  Your stone looks much better but if it needed a touch up it's doable.

 

As always, very nice and thanks for sharing!

Thank you. Essentially this type came as you say with just the stone. The ones with a metal frame came a bit more complete with a clothes guard and a drip can or provisions for one. Being familiar with them and knowing their shortcomings,what I am attempting here with this one is to improve on all of the shortcomings they had and make it convenient and easy to use, such as, comfort due to height, precision adjustable tool rest, versatility of use by allowing sitting also, plenty consistent cooling , mobility of unit, and last but not least to make sure it will not fall apart by being outside which is surely the demise of all of them. Correct material, bracing and not allowing water to penetrate into end grain of frame parts is key for that.

As far as condition when it comes to the grinding edge this one is incredibly virtually true and flat. It has a bit of a wobble sideways but not enough for it to be annoying. The important thing with any water wheel is not to keep it submerged in water when not in use. That will make the submerged part swell permanently and make wheel oblong. Trough on this one is not to contain cooling water but only to catch any water falling off wheel from the drip can and not allowing it to spatter all over floor such as when it is used inside. There will be a drain petcock on that also.

[DennisThornton 4,769]

1 hour ago, formariz said:

Thank you. Essentially this type came as you say with just the stone. The ones with a metal frame came a bit more complete with a clothes guard and a drip can or provisions for one. Being familiar with them and knowing their shortcomings,what I am attempting here with this one is to improve on all of the shortcomings they had and make it convenient and easy to use, such as, comfort due to height, precision adjustable tool rest, versatility of use by allowing sitting also, plenty consistent cooling , mobility of unit, and last but not least to make sure it will not fall apart by being outside which is surely the demise of all of them. Correct material, bracing and not allowing water to penetrate into end grain of frame parts is key for that.

As far as condition when it comes to the grinding edge this one is incredibly virtually true and flat. It has a bit of a wobble sideways but not enough for it to be annoying. The important thing with any water wheel is not to keep it submerged in water when not in use. That will make the submerged part swell permanently and make wheel oblong. Trough on this one is not to contain cooling water but only to catch any water falling off wheel from the drip can and not allowing it to spatter all over floor such as when it is used inside. There will be a drain petcock on that also.

No first hand knowledge but I've read and heard to NOT LET THEM SOAK in the water. 

 

I'm guessing that many (most?) don't know their real value is to not overheat the edge and yet still remove some material quickly enough to create an edge.  I have several modern rotary wet stones but I still want your pedal powered stone!

[formariz 11,849]

1 hour ago, DennisThornton said:

I'm guessing that many (most?) don't know their real value is to not overheat the edge and yet still remove some material quickly enough to create an edge.  I have several modern rotary wet stones but I still want your pedal powered stone!

Probably very true. Most don't know how important it is not to overheat the edge, therefor drawing the temper. Keeping it cool and going very slow with little pressure is the secret to that. I do not grind any tool I have in any electrical grinder that is not water cooled and runs in excess of 1000 RPM. Even with a water cooled wheel one can ruin the edge by excessive pressure while grinding. Another big mistake always made is to use an electrical grinder rotating at above 3000 RPM and occasionally quenching tool in water to cool it. BIG MISTAKE. By doing so one is changing the temper on it. An edge such as in a chisel or plane iron is so fine that overheating is is incredibly easy. I can guarantee that in an electrical grinder that is inevitable and impossible to control effectively. The edge does not have to be discolored to be overheated.

 

On a related note, another frustrating part of using these old grinding wheels is the fact that the water coming out of drip can is almost never hitting the right spot on the wheel and it keeps moving due to the inevitable vibration of the whole apparatus from the "pedaling". As the can also gets lighter from the reduced water amount again the direction is changed. To try and avoid  that but also wanting to keep it sort of period correct, I made a "stabilizer"

to keep can on place. It has two strong magnets that hopefully will keep can's spout aimed in the right direction and location. I am also using a reasonably large can so as not to constantly run out of water which is probably the reason why most drip cans were discarded soon after grinders started being used.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2020 by formariz

[DennisThornton 4,769]

I've never had the chance to use one so I'm wondering.  Did they ever just use the pan as a source of water?  Or what about a rub of leather or cloth to disperse the water flow?

[formariz 11,849]

10 minutes ago, DennisThornton said:

I've never had the chance to use one so I'm wondering.  Did they ever just use the pan as a source of water?  Or what about a rub of leather or cloth to disperse the water flow?

I have come across many with a wood frame that had evidence of a drip can mounting in their past. I have also seen others with a wooden or metal water trough and sometimes even a tire cut in half. However most without a way to drain trough and for sure those wheels had severe high spots on them. The idea is to keep a constant trickle of water somewhere near the tool edge. Problem with most drip cans like I mentioned is that water moves off wheel altogether from the vibration. Probably why most go with the trough eliminating that frustration. One however gives up the "slurry" which makes metal cutting more efficient .

[DennisThornton 4,769]

Slurry indeed!  I wasn't thinking about that.  But with no hands on with that style I don't know how to compare.  Even the wiper/follower\or what to call it would mess up the slurry.  Guess most everything is some sort of compromise.  Were the stones sold in different grits or by regions known for their stones?

[formariz 11,849]

They are mostly sandstone and as with natural product like the Arkansas whetstone they vary a bit from each other. I have never seen them classified as being a certain grit. The lubrication with water is also important to prevent clogging since they will definitely clog if used dry.

Berea, Ohio was called the Grindstone Capital of the Word.

[DennisThornton 4,769]

37 minutes ago, formariz said:

They are mostly sandstone and as with natural product like the Arkansas whetstone they vary a bit from each other. I have never seen them classified as being a certain grit. The lubrication with water is also important to prevent clogging since they will definitely clog if used dry.

Berea, Ohio was called the Grindstone Capital of the Word.

You've got me curious and I've Googled a bit.  Thought you might enjoy these if you haven't seen them already.  Seems I've seen "clothes guards" but thought they were just tools rests.  Looks like many were dual purpose.  I see that some did use the trough only.  And indeed, Berea was quite prolific!  Now to find one in decent shape...

Edited November 19, 2020 by DennisThornton
added pic

[formariz 11,849]

Cool photos. On first photo tool rest is on right side. To do precise grinding it needs to be pretty much right up to stone. Most of these were used for general purpose grinding and not to do something such as a chisel or plane iron. I am  trying to accomplish it doing any possible task needed.

 Every year they get more and more expensive. One does find just the stone sometimes not too costly as long it does not have major damage and one can pick it up .

[DennisThornton 4,769]

43 minutes ago, formariz said:

Cool photos. On first photo tool rest is on right side. To do precise grinding it needs to be pretty much right up to stone. Most of these were used for general purpose grinding and not to do something such as a chisel or plane iron. I am  trying to accomplish it doing any possible task needed.

 Every year they get more and more expensive. One does find just the stone sometimes not too costly as long it does not have major damage and one can pick it up .

That's my goal!  Just a decent stone! 

I've watched a guy build one so I think I can too! 

Though I would like to have the original shaft but I could build that too if I had too.

[formariz 11,849]

Found a perfect handle for it !

[DennisThornton 4,769]

17 minutes ago, formariz said:

Found a perfect handle for it !

How the heck does one find a perfect handle for it?  But I think you did!

[formariz 11,849]

2 minutes ago, DennisThornton said:

How the heck does one find a perfect handle for it?  But I think you did!

Shaft has  a tapered square end. Most handles I came across were for a triangular end, this one has a square tapered hole with the exact same dimensions. When it bottoms out one slight tap and it stays put. I can now have the grandchildren crank it as I just sit and grind.

[DennisThornton 4,769]

2 minutes ago, formariz said:

Shaft has  a tapered square end. Most handles I came across were for a triangular end, this one has a square tapered hole with the exact same dimensions. When it bottoms out one slight tap and it stays put. I can now have the grandchildren crank it as I just sit and grind.

How can that happen!  Perhaps the stars have aligned for you and your project!  I'd like to rub elbows with you for more than just your good luck!  (Actually I'm guessing that you hold on to irreplaceable valuables!)

[oliver2-44 8,852]

On 11/18/2020 at 9:04 PM, formariz said:

Getting close. Trough and drip can completed. One more curved brace , wheels and handle left.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@formariz what purpose does this curved piece do?

Is it just a brace since that side sees more force from pumping the treadle on that side?

[formariz 11,849]

53 minutes ago, oliver2-44 said:

what purpose does this curved piece do?

Is it just a brace since that side sees more force from pumping the treadle on that side?

So if unit is stationary and being used assuming all connections and joints are tight , all the force applied is really downwards, legs and center bottom braces taking care of that. However when one transports it such as I am going to do by using two wheels like in a wheelbarrow, one puts force diagonally from the top handles on one side to the where the wheels are mounted on the opposite side at bottom. That creates flexing in all joints specially the top ones. This brace takes care of that. One could achieve the same thing by a plain straight brace diagonally from about the center of each leg to the center of top rails holding stone. The curved brace is in keeping with the way some came from the factory with a similar brace but it did not go down as far as mine. My brace this long down the legs not only is stronger but also serves the purpose of being a guide for the "pedal" as it moves up and down by the mere fact that since legs are tapered the brace does not follow that when viewed from end (photo below). As pedal and brace wear from constant rubbing on each other I can tighten that fit by simply tapping metal retainer in towards leg to take up slack. Original ones used two retainers out of heavy wire that were sloppy to begin with allowing "pedal to move in and out of unit also creating unnecessary wear at pivot point. That also made them not only loose and sloppy but also noisy. There are still two "wedge" pieces going into top of brace to stop any flexing on actual brace.

 

 

Edited November 20, 2020 by formariz

[formariz 11,849]

@DennisThornton and everyone else. This one is close to me and its pretty cheap. I don't know what size it is I am waiting for that answer. I don't think it is @@" like mine but its not small. I am willing to get it and keep it until final destination can be resolved.