How to power a dump trailer?

[Alex175 784]

A couple of years ago I picked up a tandem axle atv/yard trailer that has the ability to dump and has the ears welded on to add a hydraulic piston.  I have been working on a number of ways to use my C-195 to activate the hydraulics, but keep running into more questions than answers, so I figured I would spew out a few ideas and let you guys help me decide if I am crazy, or just insane.  The trailer is set up to accept a hydraulic cylinder with a 2" bore, and a 24" stroke.  By my calculations, to fully extend the cylinder, I would need .63 gallons of fluid.  The issue here is that if I wanted to hook it up and use the tractors hydraulics the C-195 has a capacity at only .75 gallons, so I am thinking that nearly running the transmission dry if I had the trailer fully extended is probably a bad idea...

 

That was idea 1, but unless I am wrong, I think there are better options.  My second thought was to get an electric over hydraulic pump and mount it to the trailers tongue.  This way it would have an independent oil reservoir, but now we come to the problem of powering it.  It is a 2hp motor with a max run speed of 3,000 rpm.  It runs off a 12v system, and according to the manufacturer under no load it draws 80 amps, and under full load it draws 250 amps.  The pump pushes 1.5 gallons per minute, so using some really rough math, that tells me that the pump would need to run for slightly longer than 20 seconds to extend the cylinder to the max.  Is it plausible that this could run off of the tractors electrical system?  If I could what gauge wire would I need to run from the battery back to the pump? Or would I need to have a separate deep cell battery (for example a marine battery) to run the pump? 

 

Any other ideas on how to do this better would be greatly appreciated.  This trailer is a pain to tip manually, it's steel construction and wooden bed is awesome, but heavy.  I'd love to have a way to back up to where I want to dump it, and just hit a button!

 

        

[Goofey 89]

Use a double acting cylinder. Then you have no oil volume to worry about, as the cylinder is always "full". If you run off the hydro, then beware that you might need a bigger cylinder, as you do not have much psi. Think @Skipper has a setup like that. I saw a hydraulic cart on one of his threads. 

[SylvanLakeWH 24,093]

[squonk 38,844]

I have dyslexia. I'm not going to tell you what I read when I first saw the title! 

 

Nice trailer! 

[Skipper 1,788]

I do have one, however it is set up wrong. Bourght it that way, and havent had time to fix it yet. It is also a single acting cylinder, and it is just not a good idea for it. The double acting as said, is the way to go. You do not need any reservoir as it always carries the same volume. You could use the onboard hydro. Just take note that it is limited to somewhere around 700 psi or 50 Bars and about 4 gpm, so take that into consideration when calculating cylinder size.

 

You could use the electric pump, but I would go to a good quality car battery replacement/upgrade then, to handle the load. They are much more capable of that kind of current draw over longer periods. A B18/19 size car battery will fit in your 195. Go for wires at least same size as starter wire. That should do good, as long as the wires dont get crazy long. You can look up a amp/wire gauge chart online, to see the precise requirement for your intended cable length.

Edited June 2, 2020 by Skipper

[8ntruck 6,358]

A double acting cylinder will solve the oil volume issue, as the oil exiting from the end of the cylinder being extended will be returning to the hydraulic oil sump.

 

You could plumb the lift cylinder with a regenerative hydraulic circuit to increase the lift speed.  This type of plumbing takes the oil coming out of the extending end of the cylinder and introduces it into the driving end of the cylinder.  However, this type of plumbing will reduce the effective bore of the cylinder to the diameter of the rod.  Probably not ideal, if you have that trailer loaded with dirt or rocks.....

[JoeM 7,608]

I guess we lack information. How often you going to dump and most important what is the budget?

I have seen mechanical deals that will raise the bed..... like a boat winch that pulls from underneath to raise the bed. (just an example)

that bed looks like it would haul about 1000 lbs. From a frugal standpoint maybe a port a power pump and 1 inch cylinder. it would be slower but not to expensive. Seen those on car haulers.

I would use the load and work backward, might just save you some kash!

[Tractorhead 8,576]

Another solution can be a electric Powersteering pump.

that drops 30A while running under pressure and drops a max of 60A , presses about 160Bar but also just 4gpm.

that is a basic pump value but it handles also my FEL in reasonable time.

 

i‘m also on the doubleaction cylindre side.

About the Load, it depends what you want to lift and how fast it must be.

sometimes a bit slower movement and spare in loadcapacity wasn‘t a disadvantage.

 

If you decide to use the internal hydraulic of you Tractor,

i would suggest quick click connectors for a easy attach/ detach

 

[ebinmaine 62,963]

I like the idea of a bigger battery but I'd be more prone to keeping a separate battery, still bigger...

 

[Alex175 784]

5 hours ago, Goofey said:

Use a double acting cylinder.

 

So far I am really liking the sound of using the double acting cylinder, to me that makes the most sense in this scenario.  It is the most inexpensive option, and it solves my fluid issue.

 

4 hours ago, Skipper said:

Just take note that it is limited to somewhere around 700 psi or 50 Bars and about 4 gpm

 

So from what I found, calculating power is ((bore^2 x 3.14)/4) x PSI so with a 2 inch bore and 700 PSI from the pump if my math is correct I am getting around 2,200 lbs of force.  Is this a direct correlation to lifting weight, would I be able to lift 2,200 lbs?  If so to me that should be more than I would ever need for that trailer.  Additionally as a clarifying question, smaller bore = faster movement and less power, larger bore = slower movement but more power, correct?

 

3 hours ago, Tractorhead said:

If you decide to use the internal hydraulic of you Tractor,

i would suggest quick click connectors for a easy attach/ detach

 

This is my thought for sure.  My initial idea is to use the existing valves that I have for the primary hydraulics.  I would leave the 3 point hitch as is, but then take the lines for the midmount lift, run them to the back and put quick disconnects mounted in the area of where the rear PTO would go if I had one, then run a set of hoses from the rear of the machine, down to the midmount lift.  So when I have no trailer hooked up, I can connect the mid mount lift, and when I want to use the trailer I disconnect the midmount, and hook up the trailer hydraulics, all via quick disconnect.  Or do you guys think it would make more sense to do the reverse, and do that with the 3 point hitch instead, as the hoses are already back there, and if the trailers on, I guess I wouldn't be using an attachment on the 3 point.

[bc.gold 3,399]

Efficient and cheap to build, never have to worry about low hanging branches or overhead electrical wires. To woe your friends and neighbours add a hydraulic motor.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2020 by bcgold

[bc.gold 3,399]

If you move the deck to the rear then remount the hinges you'll change the fulcrum point to have more advantage.

 

[Tractorhead 8,576]

i would use a added t valve for the rear hydraulic to switch between rear or mid,

so you can still have an attached mowerdeck but can use the Rearhydraulic independently.

That make more sense in my opinion btw. hydraulic has allway’s several advantages.. 😁

it only depends your creativity...

 

 

[Skipper 1,788]

4 hours ago, Alex175 said:

So from what I found, calculating power is ((bore^2 x 3.14)/4) x PSI so with a 2 inch bore and 700 PSI from the pump if my math is correct I am getting around 2,200 lbs of force.  Is this a direct correlation to lifting weight, would I be able to lift 2,200 lbs?  If so to me that should be more than I would ever need for that trailer.  Additionally as a clarifying question, smaller bore = faster movement and less power, larger bore = slower movement but more power, correct?

 

 

That would be the pistons push/pull force, but you also need to take into the equation how the cylinder is mounted. If it pushes in less than a perfect 90 deg angle to the rear hinged bed, forces needed to lift will be a function of the worst case scenario angle. at 90 deg. you only need the force to lift the beds weight + load. at 0 deg, it's basically impossibly. Forces required gets exponentially larger as the angle diminishes. Not much to start with, but when it gets real shallow, it is tremendous forces that are needed.

 

Yes, a larger bore will exert more force, but be equally slower on the same flow volume. The one i have is a 2", running of a servo pump for now, and it very easily tips a metric ton of dirt. You need to figure out the angles of your mounted cylinder, and go from there  You should of cause mount the cylinder so it gets the best angle possible when the bed is down, and also in a position that lets it lift the bed high enough. Typically you go from somewhere around or behind the axles, and let the cylinder point forward. Make a simple scale 2d model in cardbord, and play around with what you need, and that way you also find out what stroke the cylinder need. You can of cause do it in CAD if you are into that

Edited June 3, 2020 by Skipper

[meadowfield 2,545]

I've been through this quandary when I built mine.

 

 

The only single acting cylinder I could fit is 40mm with a 25mm rod @450mm stroke.

 

My old system was a power steering pump with around 700psi, which was more than enough for my three point cylinders at 80mm, however just not enough with the angle when the body is lowered.

 

 

So the power steering pump had to go, and was replaced by a 1.5cc 3000psi pump.

 

 

which was a great idea, until at the end of the ram stroke the D-200 spool valve blew its guts out...  there no relief valve on the new pump!!!

 

So I had to fit a new spool block with relief valve.

 

All good now, wouldn't be without it

 

 

I think theres a build thread somewhere...

 

 

[cafoose 3,135]

9 hours ago, bcgold said:

Efficient and cheap to build, never have to worry about low hanging branches or overhead electrical wires. To woe your friends and neighbours add a hydraulic motor.

I got a load handler for my truck over 20 years ago and it works great Inexpensive and simple to use.

https://www.amazon.com/LoadHandler-Truck-Bed-Unloader-LH3000/dp/B001FADR2C

That one is unavailable. Here is a good link:

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/category_load-handler

[Alex175 784]

7 hours ago, Skipper said:

That would be the pistons push/pull force, but you also need to take into the equation how the cylinder is mounted.

 

So the trailer comes manufactured with the mounting for the cylinder.  I was able to get some basic information on it from the manufacturer with a kit they sell.  That kit consists of the cylinder and two hoses for $450.00 which I know I can do way better on the price.  

 

Again doing basic math, I think I have determined that closed the angle is ~2.5 degrees, maybe slightly larger, and at full extension it is ~30 degrees.  Looking at the image from their install instructions, the cylinder they are using does not appear to be that large, but I understand that it is also dependent on the power of the pump.  So the main thing I am left needing to figure out is what size bore I need for the cylinder.

 

 

[Goofey 89]

Thats not much of an angle at all. On the pic it looks bigger than that. What load would you put on it and what does the bed weigh? How big a load does the factory kit say it can tip?

 

If I remember math right you can calculate your needed power with vektors and cosine. Probably find a formula or calculator online for it.

 

Just checked a bit. If I do the math right you only get 4% lift power at 2.5 deg. and at 6 deg. you get 10% and at 10 deg. you get 17%.

 

I know Skipper is an engineer and so are others here. Perhaps better listen to them.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Goofey

[Alex175 784]

1 hour ago, Goofey said:

On the pic it looks bigger than that. What load would you put on it and what does the bed weigh? How big a load does the factory kit say it can tip?

 

It could very well be bigger than that, I guesstimated a couple of numbers in my equation as I don't have the trailer with me at the moment.  The factory provides almost no information on this thing other than capacity which is 2,000 lbs for the trailer (not the hydraulic kit, there is no info on that), which I don't think I would ever get close to maxing out for what I'll be doing.  I was lucky I was able to even find them, the only info I had when I started was the look and design of the trailer, and the fact that it had a maple leaf sticker on it.  Which I somehow through google magic I was able to find the manufacturer.

 

 

[Skipper 1,788]

@Alex175 I can give you a hand with the basic calculations and so on if you like. Just need a few more data to be able to.

 

Yes the force is split in vektors by sine to the angle, so Goofey is on the right track. Also you need to figure out your center of mass, distance from hinge point(s) etc. and you need to be certain about your angles. The load bearing line is from rear hingepoint to cylinder hingepoint on bed. second is to cylinder hinge point on frame. It is the angle between these two lines that are interesting, and none other. Also we need to know the measurements of the bed, and where the hinge points are located on it. Also you need to come up with a load number that you know will be the most you want to be able to tip.

 

Can you do some basic welding? I would strongly suggest letting the cylinder push forward from a frame hinge point around your axles, and engage the bed further up front instead of the way it is set up now. You will be able to tip much more with less force. And looking at the photos of the frame, I don't think the best idea is to just up the power enough. Better work smarter, not harder  In fact I would suggest a few beef up mods to the frame and bed too. Nothing much, just enough to distribute the forces in a better way, and perhaps make a bit lower hingepoint on the frame for the cylinder to increase your angle.

 

To give you a rough idea, a 2" cylinder would give you a force of about 2200 lbs at 700 psi. if you can only manage say 6 degrees, you would have an upwards force so to speak, of app. 220 lbs. Then you have a center of mass in the middle of your bed, if you have an evenly distributed load that is, and a cylinder "push" point closer to the rear hingepoint, meaning a simple force calculation around the hingepoint, revealing a actual lesser lift capacity, due to the shorter "arm" so without actual measurements, I would estimate 170 ish lbs at max with the factory setup at 700 psi. If you were to lift further up front on the bed, it could be 350-440 ish lbs. With a 3" cylinder, it would be double that. Increase your angle to 12 deg (which should be very doable), and you can double it again. go to 18 deg, which might also be doable, you can triple it.

 

So you see, it's all in the construct, how well you want it to perform. No problem making it tip a metric ton or more, on onboard hydraulics that is

 

Depending on the condition of your hydro unit, you should be able to fully extend a 3" x 25" stroke cylinder in 12-15 seconds.

 

When you play around with finding the right storke, then remember never to make it capable of tipping higher than your center of mass is still in front of, or just above your rear most axle, to avoid a backflip situation.

 

Let me know if you need further

Edited June 8, 2020 by Skipper

[Alex175 784]

On 6/3/2020 at 6:02 PM, Skipper said:

I can give you a hand with the basic calculations and so on if you like. Just need a few more data to be able to.

 

I appreciate the help greatly, and I apologize  for the silence here for the last few days, I have been fighting a few other things on the trailer (tires need new tubes, but the wheels are rusted and stuck on the axles) and so my attention on the hydraulics got diverted for a couple days.

 

I cannot weld, and don't have the equipment to, but I know a few people who do so I can ask around.  I plan on taking precise measurements of the trailer today when I get home so that I have all of that information available. to start building a better plan.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Alex175

[oilwell1415 563]

The angle is shallow, but since the hinge line is below the point that the cylinder connects to the bed the vertical force isn't all that matters.  With the hinge line that low you'll have a lot more dumping power than just the vertical force the cylinder puts out.  Like was said earlier, with accurate measurements it could be calculated.  But if it's designed for a 2" cylinder it will probably work fine with a 2" cylinder.

[Goofey 89]

Doubt it was designed to work with only 700 psi though. If I understand all this right, it was probably designed to run at full normal pressure. app 4 times the hydros pressure. Not worth much if it can only lift the deck and a shovel and a bucket full of nothing 

[oilwell1415 563]

Even at 700 psi it's enough to put around 750-800 lbs of vertical force in the middle of the trailer based on some guesstimates on the dimensions.  Plenty to do work.

[Goofey 89]

How do you get to that number? I can't get the math to go that far unless the angle is way bigger than he says. I just looked up a sine table and it says about 24 deg for it to reach 800 lbs.