B-112 wont start

[Wheelynice 5]

Hey Guys - glad to be here and this seems like a wonderful site.. Just joined and just picked up a B-112, not sure which year but trying to get it going.. had been sitting in a barn for 20 years I am told. Seems to be a kill relay issue. I can hear it clicking but nothing to the starter. I would like to obtain a parts manual and would like some advise on where I can purchase quality restoration / repair parts in the Norwalk / CT area. Any ideas? I can head to a local Toro dealer, but if there are specific sites you all regularly use for replacement parts, particularly for electrical and NOS items, I'd really appreciate it. Thank you for your help.

[ebinmaine 62,961]

 

 

Very important with electric issues to remember these are DC machines and you MUST have good grounds.

Clean and reattach as many connection points as you can.

Do you have a test light or dvom?

 

 

Please do post pics of the tractor.

Especially the areas of concern.

Also the ID tag.

 

It's certainly possible it needs parts but also VERY likely it needs a fair amount of simple cleaning.

Double check to verify ALL safety switches are in the proper position.

 

 

Parts sourcing is Very good although I'm not familiar with the B112 series in it's specifics.

My Honey and I are a bit "frugal" and I rarely use the dealership for parts.

 

A-Z Tractor in PA is a great source.

Redsquare has several vendors listed in the Vendors section.

McMaster Carr for lots of "standard parts".

I have a great small engine repair place near me. 

We use eBay and Amazon occasionally.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,481]

Welcome to the forum.

Your tractor has magneto ignition but the ignition switch is for battery ignition which controls an ignition kill relay.

 

Garry

[953 nut 51,520]

5 hours ago, dantheman said:

been sitting in a barn for 20 years

Your first step should be to remove the flywheel cover and clean out any gifts that mice and bugs may have left behind. 

5 hours ago, dantheman said:

Seems to be a kill relay issue. I can hear it clicking but nothing to the starter

Once you have cleaned and tightened ALL electrical connections including grounds you can do a little step by step trouble shooting.

The kill relay has no impact on the starter. Your Solenoid (picture below) should have two large wires and one small wire going to it (if it has two small wires one must be grounded). One of the large wires is connected directly to the battery. Take a small jumper wire from it to the small wire on the solenoid, it should close and the starter turn over. If the starter worked then you can move on, if not then you can use a jumper cable to go from the battery "+" terminal directly to the starter to see if the starter is functional.

Let us know how you do with this.

[SylvanLakeWH 24,093]

[Wheelynice 5]

Eric, Garry, Richard and Jim - All great advice. Attached are pictures.. tractor apparently sat for 20+ years in a barn. So, seems to be in pretty decent condition. I do have a voltmeter..thanks.

 

Here's what I did so far:

1. took off the flywheel cover and cleaned out a rather large gift nest! Was surprised how packed in...and with nuts to boot!.. Anyway after blowing all that out..

2. cleaned what contacts I could reach (at starter, at kill switch relay, at ignition switch)

3. checked fuse.. appeared in very good condition (cleaned out fuse holder and contacts)

4. checked gas tank (was empty)

5. checked to see if engine had some oil (a little black but full)

6. checked to see if engine would turn and was free (seemed as though it would) and gambled that the starter gear was preventing rotation.. so

7. put a little gas in the tank and some in the cylinder directly (took out plug and cleaned)

8. ..just heard clicking from the kill relay

9. checked for voltage from relay (and not getting anything that reads consistently.. and nothing that seems to be of any consequence in terms of voltage.. all numbers seemed pretty small, but again the meter kept jumping around)

10. decided to bypass relay and put power directly to starter and ground (this resulted in the engine turning over but no actual ignition or sign of life).. so started is good (I am just assuming engine has reasonable compression - didn't bother to test it)

 

the coil and wire seem pretty eaten and just for safety I would say these need to be replaced.. other than that, i am having trouble finding the kill relay online.. plenty of solenoids, but where can I find the OEM part numbers?

I did download the '1980-81 B series wiring detailed' pdf (and will study) but would like to get some part numbers.

I will also pull the gas tank and see if I can't get to the relay and solenoid with better access.

 

Have found primeline through Napa and seems they have the solenoid, but not sure what number I'd need, and can't find the kill relay. Their parts interchange is confusing and I don't have the original part numbers for the solenoid and relay anyway. Is there a B-112 parts diagram for the electrical?

 

Also need:

pulley for mower deck

battery (assume just about any lawn mower 12 volt battery would due)

 

I have no clue about the transmission (stick shift seems really loose, but sounds like there is engagement outside of neutral)

[Wheelynice 5]

Eric, Garry, Richard and Jim - All great advice. Attached are pictures.. tractor apparently sat for 20+ years in a barn. So, seems to be in pretty decent condition. I do have a voltmeter..thanks.

 

Here's what I did so far:

1. took off the flywheel cover and cleaned out a rather large gift nest! Was surprised how packed in...and with nuts to boot!.. Anyway after blowing all that out..

2. cleaned what contacts I could reach (at starter, at kill switch relay, at ignition switch)

3. checked fuse.. appeared in very good condition (cleaned out fuse holder and contacts)

4. checked gas tank (was empty)

5. checked to see if engine had some oil (a little black but full)

6. checked to see if engine would turn and was free (seemed as though it would) and gambled that the starter gear was preventing rotation.. so

7. put a little gas in the tank and some in the cylinder directly (took out plug and cleaned)

8. ..just heard clicking from the kill relay

9. checked for voltage from relay (and not getting anything that reads consistently.. and nothing that seems to be of any consequence in terms of voltage.. all numbers seemed pretty small, but again the meter kept jumping around)

10. decided to bypass relay and put power directly to starter and ground (this resulted in the engine turning over but no actual ignition or sign of life).. so started is good (I am just assuming engine has reasonable compression - didn't bother to test it)

 

the coil and wire seem pretty eaten and just for safety I would say these need to be replaced.. other than that, i am having trouble finding the kill relay online.. plenty of solenoids, but where can I find the OEM part numbers?

I did download the '1980-81 B series wiring detailed' pdf (and will study) but would like to get some part numbers.

I will also pull the gas tank and see if I can't get to the relay and solenoid with better access.

 

Have found primeline through Napa and seems they have the solenoid, but not sure what number I'd need, and can't find the kill relay. Their parts interchange is confusing and I don't have the original part numbers for the solenoid and relay anyway. Is there a B-112 parts diagram for the electrical?

 

Also need:

pulley for mower deck

battery (assume just about any lawn mower 12 volt battery would due)

 

I have no clue about the transmission (stick shift seems really loose, but sounds like there is engagement outside of neutral)

[ebinmaine 62,961]

You are most certainly headed the right direction.

@gwest_ca any thoughts on the requested electrical parts diagram?

 

if the solenoid is a 3 terminal you should be able to just ask for one for something like a 75 Ford f150. Pretty much anything that will bolt up and has three terminals will work.

Same basic scenario for the battery. I don't know what that particular tractor had in it but most of them were a u1 series... could have been reversed terminal so watch for that.

 

 

That's not a mouse nest.

That is a multi-unit 🐁 condominium with space for In-laws, friends, cousins.

 

 

 

[953 nut 51,520]

44 minutes ago, dantheman said:

i am having trouble finding the kill relay online

I am thinking that the green wire from the kill relay goes to your coil on the engine's magneto. If this is the case you can remove the green wire for testing so it will not prevent the magneto from developing spark. If the kill relay clicks when the key is turned on it is probably working. This relay doesn't pass any voltage to anything, it grounds out the magneto to stop the engine.

48 minutes ago, dantheman said:

9. checked for voltage from relay (and not getting anything that reads consistently.. and nothing that seems to be of any consequence in terms of voltage.. all numbers seemed pretty small, but again the meter kept jumping around)

10. decided to bypass relay and put power directly to starter and ground (this resulted in the engine turning over but no actual ignition or sign of life).. so started is good (I am just assuming engine has reasonable compression - didn't bother to test it)

I presume the relay you are talking about here is the starter solenoid. If you jump across the two large terminals of the solenoid and the starter turns over the battery cables are all good. If not then you may have one or more battery cables that needs to be replaced.

If you take a small jumper from the battery "+" to the small terminal of the solenoid and the solenoid closes then it is probably good.

[Wheelynice 5]

Thanks Eric and Richard for your continued help. I will test the kill relay and solenoid as mentioned Richard. I only tried to check for voltage from the relay, and was just trying to see if I was getting any voltage after the relay. I heard clicking withing removing any wires. I will jump across the terminals of the solenoid as see if the starter turns over (reminds me of years ago working on my '69 barracuda!). I will test for spark at the plug and work backwards from there.. I don't the plug is getting any spark when the engine turns over after directly hooking up the battery to the starter (starter seems to work)

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,481]

Did you ever find the ID plate on the tractor? There was one 1980 model 02-11BX01 and two 1981 models 02-11BX02 and 02-11BX03.

These parts lists are not good but all we have.

The one manual is for at least 3 different similar models but fails to identify what model uses what.

When you look at the parts lists each part has an item number. When you go down the list you will see the items numbers may start over for some of them. Those are the problem ones. Best to ask if you are not sure on part selection.

Click on the pictures below for more info.

 

Garry

[ebinmaine 62,961]

52 minutes ago, dantheman said:

Thanks Eric and Richard for your continued help. I will test the kill relay and solenoid as mentioned Richard. I only tried to check for voltage from the relay, and was just trying to see if I was getting any voltage after the relay. I heard clicking withing removing any wires. I will jump across the terminals of the solenoid as see if the starter turns over (reminds me of years ago working on my '69 barracuda!). I will test for spark at the plug and work backwards from there.. I don't the plug is getting any spark when the engine turns over after directly hooking up the battery to the starter (starter seems to work)

 

 

 

No worries on the continued help there Dan. A lot of us enjoy helping others get these things running just as much as we do on our own.

 

Just some food for thought here

I'm not by any means saying your tractor is set up this way but I've seen kill relays that were live on the feed side but just a ground wire on the side that the relay itself actually closed.

I think it was Richard said a post or two back that if the kill relay is making noise it's likely working.

 

Instead of checking for voltage on the FEED side of the relay you may need to be checking for continuity because it is a ground ... not hot.

 

Again. Not sure. Just throwing it out there.

[wallfish 15,907]

The kill relay is part of the safety system which will ground it out if the safety parameters aren't met like sitting in the seat and or PTO engaged etc etc or if there's an issue with any of the switches.

Your engine is a magnito ignition, so that engine will run without any wires connected to it. Remove the wire going to that relay from the coil and this will eliminate the safety system so you can service it and fix the spark issue. Get spark and then deal with the safety system. If that relay is clicking, it seems it is triggering and grounding out the ignition. It may not be a faulty relay but could be a problem somewhere else. 

[953 nut 51,520]

The air gap between the flywheel and the magneto coil should be between .010" and .014". If there is rust or crud built up on the flywheel that could prevent it from developing spark.

[Wheelynice 5]

Thanks guys.. will check the gap and fiddle with the wires in the morning didn't want to try and start tonight as I didn't want to disturb my neighbors.. but I did remove the wheelhouse (?) so as to gain access. I cleaned the solenoid, the relay, the PTO (safety switch?) and the ignition switch.. sprayed some electronics cleaner and tried to be reasonably thorough with the connections. Will check the magneto gap tomorrow (need to find my feeler gauges first), will also pull the green wire and try and jump the solenoid..

 

Below are pictures of my model numbers. Seems I have a 1980 model..and all parts seem to be well made (despite the fact that it seems somebody has been there before me - oversize spade connectors crimped on the relay)..we'll dig a little further in the morning!..

 

Oh.. and thanks for all the literature..after hours searching online for parts diagrams for the tractor (such as for the relay and solenoid, magneto.. etc.) it's quite a relief to see these pictures and get the actual part numbers! 

[Wheelynice 5]

B-112 engine model number and tractor model plate pictures..

 

Is there a manual for the mower deck? I need a pulley for that.. Seems as though Napa primeline has lots of them, but need either the part number, or the dimensions. An actual manual would be great. Was planning on purchasing the carb rebuild kit direct from Briggs. Anybody have a good source for the electrics if I find any of these items are needed? Should I try a local CT Toro dealer?

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,481]

Here is everything we have for the model 02-11BX01.

They are in no particular order so look through them all.

https://www.wheelhorseforum.com/search/?&q=02-11BX01&type=downloads_file&search_and_or=or&sortby=relevancy

 

Mower deck possibilities. Which one do you have? Decks are sized by their width of cut - not the width of the deck.

05-36XR01 36" Rear Discharge Mower No Longer Available. Original Model Supersedes To: 05-36XR02 05-36XS01 36" Side Discharge Mower No Longer Available. Original Model Supersedes To: 05-36XS02 05-37MS01 37" Side Discharge Mower No Longer Available. Original Model Supersedes To: 05-37MS02 05-42SB01 42" Side Discharge Mower No Longer Available. Original Model Supersedes To: 05-42SB02 05-42XR01 42" Rear Discharge Mower No Longer Available. Original Model Supersedes To: 05-42XR02

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,481]

Your engine was made October 24, 1979 and the tractor's build date is November 20, 1979. This is the date your batch of tractors was scheduled to be built but would have been done shortly after.

 

Garry

[Wheelynice 5]

Finally got back on the horse gentlemen.. bought a coil sometime time ago and was able to install it today. Here's what I found.. Please see attached pictures.

I was able to get it to turn over but then I couldn't get it to start again. Who knows for sure if the coil was to blame, but at least the engine fired, so I am guessing that was at least one of the issues. I think perhaps the insulation on the condenser might be preventing solid contact.. Does anybody know exactly how the points, condenser, ground and coil wires are supposed to be wired? I think I re-wired the same way as original but seems way to tight to get all of these wires on one short screw terminal! I am also wondering if perhaps I have a bad condenser.. as I mentioned it did manage to fire just briefly, so I am guessing the engine is fine.

 

I still need:

1. battery (not sure what size. model etc. is needed

2. mower deck pulley

3. advice on the above

 

.. I am almost there. Thanks again everyone for your continued help. 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,481]

Here is a service manual for your engine

Garry

[Wheelynice 5]

Thanks Garry. However, the manual does not seem to show any of the ignition below the flywheel aluminum cover. Not sure if I have a Type 1 or II magnetron and I don't see a "stop switch" anywhere near the magnetron (presumably that is the simply the ignition switch near the steering wheel, which it seems the manual may be labeling 'key stop'). I am also assuming I have 'Ignition Armature Model Series 32K400', and the 'mechanical' version, but this, too, is not clear. Where can I find out what type "system" I have.

 

Is there anybody out there who can recognize the components in the pictures and advise? I think I have the dual circuit type alternator (given I have what seems to be the single polarized plug), but this shouldn't affect whether or not I have spark. I will check the manual for points gap and run through that tomorrow and see if I can't order a replacement condenser. If anybody can send me a picture of how these wires should be routed/anchored at the points, that would be much appreciated as I don't think the way these are currently routed is quite right. Thanks all for the continued help.

[Wheelynice 5]

I set the gap for points at 20 thousanths and this seemed to get it running.. just need a battery and possibly a carb rebuild! Just need the deck pulley now.. What do people use to see the junction of the wires to the point cover (as per the factory)? permatex #2 I recall was mentioned in the manual. Just want to keep dirt out. Thanks for any input. Is there a battery size recommended? Manual didn't seem to say (can't find any info).. I recall reading somewhere a letter designation..if somebody can let me know the correct specs. that would be appreciated.

[Howie 882]

Don't think those are the right points for that engine. I thjink you need B&S "294628.

Edited September 8, 2020 by Howie
error

[Wheelynice 5]

Howie - Looking back over this.. since my engine still won't idle. I am thinking it's that idle jet bushing or seal in the carb (which I couldn't remove) but also second guessing the points (per your comment). Though the fact that it runs and I can adjust the throttle suggest points aren't the problem.. I appreciate the comment and now am thinking of going to the pointless (electronic?) ignition.. Still can't fix the carb issue however.