Remove Welded Hubs

[71_Bronco 1,072]

Have an 8-speed that I'm going to be working on to put in my Commando 8 (to replace the 4-speed). It is, from what I can tell, a 5060 trans.

 

I pulled the grub screws out of the hubs, but have another issue to deal with. one of the previous owners of said transmission, has welded the hubs to the shafts. the globbed on weld is only on the outer face (where the hub outer face meets the end of the shaft).

 

My plan of attack was to take a dremel with a bur-bit, and try to grind out the weld. I'm not sure if the output shafts will be usable after this though.

 

Is there a better way to take these off? I will take a couple pictures tonight of the offending weld.

[Ed Kennell 35,769]

If the the PO never ground a bevel, the weld is probably just on the surface.  You should be able to save the axles and the hubs.  There probably is a problem with the keyways though that caused the PO to weld.      We have restored shaft keyways and new keyways can be cut in the hubs.

If the tractor is running, I would consider blocking it and let it turn as a lathe.   A Dremel or cut off wheel on a 41/2 " angle grinder could be used to slit the weld.    Support the grinder on blocks so you have good position control and let the hub turn as you ease the grinder into the weld.

[71_Bronco 1,072]

Ed, thanks for the advice. The Commando is running and driving (with the stock 3-speed). The 5060 is out on the bench currently.

[bc.gold 3,399]

Old school carbon air arc gouging, new technique is to use Plasma.

 

 

 

[953 nut 51,679]

6 hours ago, 71_Bronco said:

the globbed on weld is only on the outer face

Chances are you can cut a small groove at the base of the weld goober and then use a small chisel to pop it off. Probably wasn't good penetration.  

[wallfish 15,919]

A picture is worth a thousand words.

Can you just grind it off?

[71_Bronco 1,072]

Heres a pic of the ends where the welds are. One side seems to be goobered just on the outside, but the other seems like it got a decent penetration.

[Ed Kennell 35,769]

I would take John's advice and grind both down to clean metal. Then you can se where the two are actually attached.     It looks like the first one is only attached at 1-3 o-clock.

The second one only at 11.

[bc.gold 3,399]

9 minutes ago, 71_Bronco said:

Heres a pic of the ends where the welds are. One side seems to be goobered just on the outside, but the other seems like it got a decent penetration.

 

if you can remove the heavily welded axle a machinist could remove the weld, on the gobbed axle fortunately cast iron does not take well to the type of welding rod used/

 

Is there enough room behind the hub to push it further onto the axle, those gobs will break free then you can clean up the axle to fully remove the hub.

[71_Bronco 1,072]

Okay, got to spend some time with these today.

 

I was able to smack the hubs with a socket and pop the welds off the hubs. With the hubs moved back, I then used a dremel with a burr bit to clean up the welds and make them flush or below the shaft diameter. Once ground down, hubs were removed.

 

What's super interesting, is that both the hub key-way, and the shaft key-way, were in mint shape, like they have no visible wear. I cant for the life of me figure out why the previous owner welded them like that.

 

I also got the brake drum off, built a little wooden stand (to hold the transmission on its side), and split the case.

 

I think I have some issues with some of the inner gears. Not sure if these teeth are supposed to be beveled like this, or if someone tried shifting without the transmission being stopped first.

 

Also, I think I'm going to have to investigate the output shafts. One hub was about 3/4" further from the housing than the other. I think someone must have built the differential with (2) 12" long shafts, and not (1) 11-1/4" long shaft and (1) 12" long shaft.

Edited May 23, 2020 by 71_Bronco

[bc.gold 3,399]

Bevel is supposed to be there to help the gear engage.

 

That is not a synchromesh transmission be sure to double clutch when shifting gears when travelling more than 40 mph

 

 

 

Edited May 23, 2020 by bcgold

[71_Bronco 1,072]

Heres a pic of the axle shaft after the hub was removed. As I said, key slot looks perfect.

 

The other 2 pics are of the hubs before I started, showing how one is further from the transmission casing. This is what makes me believe 2 longer shafts were used instead of one short and one long.

[953 nut 51,679]

The gears didn't leave the factory looking like that, but they have plenty of life left in them (about average after 50 years). Well worth taking apart to inspect bearings and replace all the seals.

[bc.gold 3,399]

6 hours ago, 953 nut said:

The gears didn't leave the factory looking like that, but they have plenty of life left in them (about average after 50 years). Well worth taking apart to inspect bearings and replace all the seals.

 

I would clean the burrs off the factory bevelled edges so the gear engages effortlessly.

Edited May 24, 2020 by bcgold

[71_Bronco 1,072]

The case inside was dry, and I will definitely be doing some cleaning / inspection. Some of the gears have some rust-colored discoloration on them. I'll be doing a better inspection of all parts once I get more time to do a full tear-down.

 

I'm definitely going to be replacing the seals, as they are cheap and easy. The axle bearings seem good, the axles dont have up-and-down play. I may replace them anyways though.

 

For the rest of the internal ball bearings, how do I determine if they are good? Especially the large 1533 bearings.

 

@stevasaurus

[stevasaurus 22,230]

Put a little oil in the bearing, use a finger that fits and see how they feel.  They may even roll for you a little.  Also, place in the correct shaft and see if you have any play.  You should have very little to no play.  

   Your 1533 bearings...look for any scratches on the balls.  Put in a little oil and turn them by hand.  If they look and feel good, then they are good to go.

   I would open that differential and actually measure those axles...also look at the end plates.  The 12" axle and the longer end plate go on the right side of the transmission...input shaft side.  Like you said, the shorter axle is 11 1/4".  

[71_Bronco 1,072]

Okay, got the differential apart. Things are really screwy with this transmission.

 

First off, the axles were the same length, as expected. However, they both measured 11-5/8" long, meaning both are the wrong axle. 

 

The gears on the axles, retained by the snap ring (part 7197) are in mint shape, no wear.

 

The 10 differential pinion gears are in pretty decent shape. All of them have the same wear (shown in picture below). Not sure if these are usable or if I should buy a new set. All of them have the same wear, but vary from tooth-to-tooth and gear-to-gear. The picture shows about the worst wear.

 

The aluminum end caps are perfect, the 2 steel bodies are perfect (that hold the pinion gears) and the differential outer ring gear is perfect too.

 

The pinion cylinder spring (part number 7235) has some wear (pictured), not sure if this is usable or if I should order one from WHP&M.

 

Edited May 24, 2020 by 71_Bronco

[bc.gold 3,399]

8 hours ago, 71_Bronco said:

The picture shows about the worst wear.

 

Not able to see the number of teeth, looks like 12, if this gear was mated to a even numbered tooth count then the worn spot would fall into the same positions.

 

For example a bad tooth on your 12 mated to a 36 tooth gear would strike home three times per revolution, if either gear had an odd number of teeth the damaged tooth would move to an advanced or trailing position.

 

Had both gears an even amount of teeth their mating position should have been marked so they could have been installed as removed into the same wear pattern.

 

Edited May 25, 2020 by bcgold

[71_Bronco 1,072]

10 hours ago, bcgold said:

 

Not able to see the number of teeth, looks like 12, if this gear was mated to a even numbered tooth count then the worn spot would fall into the same positions.

 

For example a bad tooth on your 12 mated to a 36 tooth gear would strike home three times per revolution, if either gear had an odd number of teeth the damaged tooth would move to an advanced or trailing position.

 

Had both gears an even amount of teeth their mating position should have been marked so they could have been installed as removed into the same wear pattern.

 

 

Pinion gears are 11 teeth each, and the mating gears are 25 teeth I think. All 10 pinion gears have the same wear spot, on all teeth. Both of the other gears that mount on the axles have no wear.

 

I think the wear is from the pinion gears turning on themselves as they only mesh with eachother with a little bit of contact area.

[bc.gold 3,399]

Same number of tooth damage indicates contact damage caused by one of two things, someone did a bit of welding repair elsewhere on the tractor ( Electrical Corrosion ) or the damage was caused by a very long lay up and what were seeing is electrolysis corrosion.

 

Here;s a page by NSK explanation with images of types of bearing failures.

Edited May 25, 2020 by bcgold

[pfrederi 17,147]

I believe the 11-5/8" axles are from newer 8 speeds. 

[71_Bronco 1,072]

34 minutes ago, bcgold said:

Same number of tooth damage indicates contact damage caused by one of two things, someone did a bit of welding repair elsewhere on the tractor ( Electrical Corrosion ) or the damage was caused by a very long lay up and what were seeing is electrolysis corrosion.

 

Here;s a page by NSK explanation with images of types of bearing failures.

 

Based on that link, it looks most like the flaking, which is generally caused by excessive load.

 

Attached is a picture of how the gears sit in the differential and how the mesh, vs the wear patterns. I'm wondering if I can flip the pinion gears around and re-install. This is just a guess though, as I didn't make note of how they were positioned in the differential when I took it apart.

[pfrederi 17,147]

The bigger gears from the axle are the correct ones for a Limited slip differential.  The have a different tooth shape and pattern than the gears from normal differential.  I would attribute the damage to corrosion or foreign object not mismatch

[bc.gold 3,399]

I think were seeing electrolysis corrosion the damage most occurred near the ends of the teeth, as the transmission lubricant aged and contaminated with moisture it became acidic.

 

i would suggest replacing those gears and all the bearings also add a sacrificial anode to take care of errant currents.

 

For transmission lube every year or so do a frying pan sizzle test, a drop of oil into a hot pan will sizzle if any moisture is present, replace the lubricant.  If the shift boot is bad replace it as well.

 

 

Edited May 25, 2020 by bcgold

[stevasaurus 22,230]

The 11 5/8" axles are part number 102764 and can be found in the #5091 8 speed transmission...+ some others.

The 12' axle is part #7202 and the 11 1/4" is #7203 for the #5060 transmission.

You can mix and match those pistons anyway you want...the are the same on both ends.  I didn't see anything I would not re-use.  I suggest the PO welded the short axles to the hubs just because they were short.  I would bet Lincoln at A-Z would have used axles.  The aluminum end plates does make this transmission a #5060.