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oliver2-44

K141,k161, K161 Decarbon, Get Running, What is This

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oliver2-44

I picked up these 3 Kohlers awhile back, and time has come to see what shape there in. 

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I was told the Red and Blueish one (2nd and 3rd above) had been used on water pumps for small vegetable farm irrigation. They both had these interesting brass "Thingies" on them.  They were quite crudded up inside and out, and here's them cleaned up.  it seems like I've seen these in a Kohler accessories catalog, but haven found them today.  i initially thought they were part of the fuel/some kind of throttle assy, but they only have one fitting in.  These two also do not have fuel pumps on them.

So what are they.  

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All three were quite full of carbon.

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I'll mic the cylinders this evening, interested to see what they measure as I can definitely see some piston movement side to side when I push on them. 

 The 2 carbs I have are soaring in a gallon of carb cleaner. Interesting the choke butterfly shafts do not have much-if any wobble/looseness in them.  

 

 

IMG_3160[1].JPG

IMG_3117[1].JPG

IMG_3128[1].JPG

IMG_3127[1].JPG

Edited by oliver2-44

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Ed Kennell

Propane regulator?

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tunahead72

I have no idea what that is, but if you don't get any answers here, you might try looking through one of the Kohler parts manuals here on the forum for clues.

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Jayzauto

Those Brass Pieces look to be some type of Load Compensator, to maintain a constant speed under load.  Like a generator or welder would have.  Which would make sense, as you stated they were originally used for irrigation pumps.  It looks as there should be a way to connect it to the governor, maybe some type of keyhole bracket missing??  the other end should be connected to  maybe a water source??  Tough to say, as it looks like it was disabled.  But I think I remembered seeing pieces similar in an accessories catalog also.

 

 

GLuck, Jay

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oliver2-44

I did some searches in the some Kohler catalogs and didn't find anything resembling those brass thingies, so the mystery remains.

 

So a little more work on the engines reveals the following:

Black K161, Spec 281017J  Serial B744823

The Spec has a "J" suffix, so it should have ACR compression release.  

The serial number starts with a "B" so it was manufactured in 1966. 

Cylinder dia 2.875-2.876 new, 2.879 max wear.  I measures it 2 directions top and bottom and the max is 2.880  So .003 to .004 ths wear from new.

It has no compression, and when I pulled the head I found the exhaust valve is slightly bent.   

This engine did not have a carb with it.

 

Blue K161, Spec 281163J  Serial 4317158

The Spec has a "J" suffix, so it should have ACR compression release.  

The serial number indicates it was manufactured in 1972. 

Cylinder dia 2.937-2.938 new, 2.941 max wear.  I measures it 2 directions top and bottom and the max is 2.942  So .004 -.005 ths wear from new.

It has compression, and when I pulled the head it looked the best of the 3.      

 

Red K141, Spec 29372d  No serial number tag 

The Spec has a "d" suffix, so it Does Not have ACR compression release.  

Cylinder dia 2.937-2.938 new, 2.941 max wear.  I measures it 2 directions top and bottom and the max is 2.941  So .004 ths wear from new.

It cannot be rotated over fully, when I pulled the head I found the exhaust valve is stuck. 

It was carbon ed up the worst and the picture above is of it.  After cleaning up the carbon you can see something had bounced around on the top of the piston (right bottom corner) 

487826689_IMG_32071.JPG.502b55ed1e7fe4343e6b84f476bb3f86.JPG

 The exhaust outlet and valve stem was full of carbon.  I cleaned it out with a brush on a Dremel. Then I chased the exhaust outlet threads with a pipe tap and flushed everything out. 

I pulled the valve cover to see if I could move the exhaust valve, but it was stuck tight and I didn't want to force it.  Inside the valve spring chamber I found a surprise. Two, 1/4" long tiny springs and 2 1/8" dia steel balls.   Digging futher I pulled the oil pan and it was fairly clean inside (typical black, but no sludge, etc) but I found three more 1/8" steel balls.

370437085_IMG_32211.JPG.3269d0dde68b4a3058e5ce2683a59bba.JPG

Any idea what these springs and balls are from?  Based on the spec# it doesn't have  ACR, but it could have been replaced in its lifetime (and I forgot to look at the cam while I had the bottom open).  Does the governor gear have any parts like this? 

 

Since I was this far into the engine, I marked, then pulled the rod cap and surprisingly the rod and crankshaft journal looked perfect.  I mic'ed it  (I left the numbers in the shop) but it had .0005 ths or less wear on the crank journal.  I even went and got my mic standard and double checked my mic and it was spot on.   I reinstalled and torqued the rod cap and temporarily put the oil pan back on to keep thinks clean.

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I leaned the engine over and filled the exhaust cavity as full as I could with PB Blaster

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Then I sealed it with a pipe plug to let it soak.   

 

So it looks like the Blue K161 has the best chance out of the three of actually running. 

With .004-.005 ths cylinder wear do ya'll think it will have enough compression to run?  

Edited by oliver2-44

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tunahead72
9 hours ago, oliver2-44 said:

… So a little more work on the engines reveals the following:

 

Black K161, Spec 281017J  Serial B744823

The Spec has a "J" suffix, so it should have ACR compression release.  

The serial number starts with a "B" so it was manufactured in 1966. 

Cylinder dia 2.875-2.876 new, 2.879 max wear.  I measures it 2 directions top and bottom and the max is 2.880  So .003 to .004 ths wear from new.

It has no compression, and when I pulled the head I found the exhaust valve is slightly bent.   

This engine did not have a carb with it.

 

Blue K161, Spec 281163J  Serial 4317158

The Spec has a "J" suffix, so it should have ACR compression release.  

The serial number indicates it was manufactured in 1972. 

Cylinder dia 2.937-2.938 new, 2.941 max wear.  I measures it 2 directions top and bottom and the max is 2.942  So .004 -.005 ths wear from new.

It has compression, and when I pulled the head it looked the best of the 3.      

 

Red K141, Spec 29372d  No serial number tag 

The Spec has a "d" suffix, so it Does Not have ACR compression release.  

Cylinder dia 2.937-2.938 new, 2.941 max wear.  I measures it 2 directions top and bottom and the max is 2.941  So .004 ths wear from new.

It cannot be rotated over fully, when I pulled the head I found the exhaust valve is stuck. 

It was carbon ed up the worst and the picture above is of it.  After cleaning up the carbon you can see something had bounced around on the top of the piston (right bottom corner)...

 

I'm no expert on these engines, so I'll let others who know much more than I do respond to your photos and questions.  But I'm a little confused about your findings here, and just want to make sure we're all on the same page before we get too far...

 

You listed your K141 and one of the K161's as having the same cylinder diameter specs, at 2.937-2.938, which doesn't make sense to me.  And the other K161 you list at 2.875-2.876 new.  Did you switch some of your numbers somehow, or am I missing something?

 

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The Tuul Crib

I dont know of anywhere in these engines

that there would be any  ball bearings. 
Maybe they some how had gotten into 

the top thru the spark plug hole at one time and that beat up the piston.  
Strange :ph34r:

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pfrederi
6 minutes ago, The Tool Crib said:

I dont know of anywhere in these engines

that there would be any  ball bearings. 
Maybe they some how had gotten into 

the top thru the spark plug hole at one time and that beat up the piston.  
Strange :ph34r:

There are small ball bearings inside the valve rotator.  He found them in the valve chamber and crank case.  The went through the oil drain hole from chamber to crankcase.  The small springs are also part of rotator.

Edited by pfrederi

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The Tuul Crib

Did they only do this in the earlier

small blocks?

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oliver2-44

Thanks @pfrederi Any chance you or someone know "how many" ball bearings and springs are in each valve rotator?

@tunahead72 I think those cyl dia readings are correct.  I still have the head off the K141 and it definatelly is 2.941.  I had questioned this when I had all 3 heads pulled.  The newer Koler manual doesn't even include info on the k141 and I found an older manuel and it listed the K141 and the K161 together and listed two cylinder dia. 2.875 and 2.937.  The stroke on both of them is the same. the black K161 with the "odd" dia  is probable the oldest of the 3  i'd appreciate any others to comment on this????

 

34 minutes ago, tunahead72 said:

 

I'm no expert on these engines, so I'll let others who know much more than I do respond to your photos and questions.  But I'm a little confused about your findings here, and just want to make sure we're all on the same page before we get too far...

 

You listed your K141 and one of the K161's as having the same cylinder diameter specs, at 2.937-2.938, which doesn't make sense to me.  And the other K161 you list at 2.875-2.876 new.  Did you switch some of your numbers somehow, or am I missing something?

 

 

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pfrederi
3 minutes ago, oliver2-44 said:

Thanks @pfrederi Any chance you or someone know "how many" ball bearings and springs are in each valve rotator?

 

 

 

  Sorry the one that came apart on me may have sent a bearing or two to hide in corners of the workshop never to be seen again.:P  I don't have a small block apart at the moment I will try to count the balls in a K321 later.

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pfrederi
13 minutes ago, The Tool Crib said:

Did they only do this in the earlier

small blocks?

Some spec numbers use them some do not.  May have bee what the customer wanted (and wanted to pay for)  I note that the c-181 WH used on my C-81 (30700D) did not use them.

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tunahead72
31 minutes ago, oliver2-44 said:

@tunahead72 I think those cyl dia readings are correct.  I still have the head off the K141 and it definatelly is 2.941.  I had questioned this when I had all 3 heads pulled.  The newer Koler manual doesn't even include info on the k141 and I found an older manuel and it listed the K141 and the K161 together and listed two cylinder dia. 2.875 and 2.937.  The stroke on both of them is the same. the black K161 with the "odd" dia  is probable the oldest of the 3  i'd appreciate any others to comment on this????

 

I don't know how to explain that.  Is there a chance any of the shrouds are not original, or even one of the tags?

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pfrederi

Interesting K141 and K161 had the exact same bore and stroke.  141 6.25hp  161 7 hp.  Beginning "Creative" HP ratings???

 

No specific customer for the K141 or K161 (281163)  K161 (281017) was built for Arrow Development...

 

 

bor.JPG

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pfrederi

You  have found all the balls there are 5 in the rotator on the K321 I have apart right now.  Part number for that rotator and on the K181 are the same so I assume it is the same for 161s

 

There are also 5 springs but they are small and may have been ground up....

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tunahead72
22 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

Interesting K141 and K161 had the exact same bore and stroke.  141 6.25hp  161 7 hp.  Beginning "Creative" HP ratings???

 

No specific customer for the K141 or K161 (281163)  K161 (281017) was built for Arrow Development...

 

 

bor.JPG

 

I suspect the info there for the K161 is wrong, maybe a misprint or something.  I have two other later Kohler manuals that show 2.938" bore for that engine (I also have a 1968 service manual that matches what you posted).

 

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pfrederi
10 minutes ago, tunahead72 said:

 

I suspect the info there for the K161 is wrong, maybe a misprint or something.  I have two other later Kohler manuals that show 2.938" bore for that engine (I also have a 1968 service manual that matches what you posted).

 

  That makes sense.  2-7/8" K141 and 2-15/16" K161

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oliver2-44
35 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

  That makes sense.  2-7/8" K141 and 2-15/16" K161

This Kohler spec table from brian Millers site shows both the K141 and k161 info.

http://gardentractorpullingtips.com/engspecs.htm

  Anythings possible regarding the swapping of the tins.The black K161 could possible be a k141 as its been repainted, but scratching the paint the tins and engine old paint seem to match.  The Red K141 has not been repainted, the tins match, and and the piston does not have a "STD or ovesize stamp on it.  So if truly a K141 it should had a bore of 2.875 new.  But the crank is in excellent shape and measures 1.860 which is a new crank dia so it has not been reground.   I've read when you bore a K14 you bore to a new k161 dia, no oversixe k141 pistons are made.  

I guess that will just be another mystery with these old engines.

Edited by oliver2-44
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oliver2-44

So while my exhaust valve stem is for several days soaking in PB Blaster, I need some suggestion on how you would "grab" the valve to try to rotate it or begin moving it up and down.   The valve is stuck fully closed, so there's not much of the head to grab on to.  I took my valve spring compressor and compressed the spring, but there's really not much stem to grab on to there.  I guess worst case I could weld a nut to the head of the valve, but I would really like to leave that as the last option .  After it soaks a few days with PB Blaster, I may clean the exhaust chamber out  with carb cleaner and soak it Evaporust.  

As @953 nut likes to say, " it took years to rust stuck , so don't expect it to free overnight"  

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