Raider 12...getting it going

[AHS 1,546]

It ran in 2012! I have spark, and I rewired it. I dunno what the points are supposed to be set at, but I tried .015? Its something stupid.

[ebinmaine 72,706]

Points should be .020. as a starting point.

 

Adjust as necessary from there.

 

Almost always something silly. Maybe time to get out the test light...

 

[AHS 1,546]

I did have the head bolts out to paint that engine shroud... maybe it’s a head gasket?

[The Tuul Crib 7,339]

If you went so far as to paint the bolts I would've taken the head off and the carbon everything. Like Eric said the points should be set at .020. You can 

get a head gasket for 10 to 15 bucks. 
The torque sequence for the head bolts you can get in the manual section 

Has the carb been cleaned?

[AHS 1,546]

Oh ya, the carbs been cleaned. Timing light? @ebinmaine I’ve never had the motor apart.. adjusted the points, and going to take the head off. What am I missing... it turn over real fast like it’s going to start... but then nothing... maybe a head gasket.

[pfrederi 18,682]

How do you know you have spark???  How have you tested it?? laying the plug on the head and cranking is not a valid test. Plugs will fire then but not under compression.  Turn over speed is not particularly relevant

 

Edited January 8, 2020 by pfrederi

[Rob R 973]

Compression, Spark, Fuel  got all three you got noise...

 

Compression >  take out the plug put your thumb over the hole crank the engine if it blows you thumb off the hole go to the next step

Spark > with the plug out reconnect the spark plus wire, ground the base of the plug on the engine turn off the lights if you see spark go to the next step

Fuel > dribble some fuel into the spark plug hole put the plug back in crank the engine if you make some noise then you issue is either delivery of fuel to the carl or the carb itself 

 

P.s. never leave out any of the steps as you will out guess yourself every time …….

 

[953 nut 60,057]

Ignition timing on Kohler engines.

 

Gapping the ignition points at .020 has always been the standard answer to how points should be set. That probably will get you into the ballpark where the engine will run, but with a bit of additional effort you can improve the engine’s power and performance.

The Kohler engine manual in the Red Square files section covers two methods for setting the ignition timing, Static Timing and using a Timing Light. This manual is a relatively new manual and it overlooks the fact that many of our engines were built prior to the ACR (automatic compression release) camshaft.

Earlier engines (mostly 1965 and earlier) had a Spark Advance camshaft that can not be timed using Static timing. At rest (and very low RPMs) the timing is retarded to fire slightly after TDC. The timing mark (SP) on your flywheel is at twenty degrees before top dead center but at rest the points on these engines break about ten degrees after top dead center. The only reliable way to check or set the timing on these engines is with a timing light.

There are a couple ways to determine what camshaft you have. Presuming the camshaft in your engine is the one it was born with the data plate on the engine has a suffix that can tell you what camshaft was used. The table below will tell you the suffix applicable to your engine. The other way to determine what camshaft you have is to remove the cam gear cover and take a look. If you see a mechanism attached to the cam gear it is the ACR cam.

 

 

The following engines have the spark advance camshaft;

K-141, Suffix prior to “C”

K-161, Suffix prior to “J”

K-181, Suffix prior to “D”

K-241, Suffix prior to “D”

[8ntruck 7,839]

Points need cleaning?  They might be corroded if they have been sitting a while.

[AHS 1,546]

2 hours ago, 8ntruck said:

Points need cleaning?  They might be corroded if they have been sitting a while.

I have cleaned them

[ebinmaine 72,706]

So let's back up a little bit.

You say you have spark. How did you check it?

 

Have you verified that the engine has compression?

 

What other tests or checks have you done?

 

 

[AHS 1,546]

Wow! @953 nut the motor is a 1970. 99% sure. where will I find what camshaft it has? I have ordered a head gasket for it, ( I took off some of the head  bolts in order to paint the engine tin) 

[AHS 1,546]

6 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

So let's back up a little bit.

You say you have spark. How did you check it?

 

Have you verified that the engine has compression?

 

What other tests or checks have you done?

 

 

I took the spark plug out to check for spark (I know, not the correct way to check it for spark) . And the points were closed, so I opened them up to .020, and got fire. The Engine has some compression. My compression tester is right next to it, I haven’t had a chance to use it.  I know, 2012 was a long time ago, but I remember it running so strong! 

[ebinmaine 72,706]

Never mind about the compression tester because you can't use that on that engine anyways. That should have had ACR from the factory.

 

How old or how many hours are on the spark plug?

Have you verified that you're getting fuel in the cylinder?

 

 

[lynnmor 7,823]

1 hour ago, AHS said:

I took the spark plug out to check for spark (I know, not the correct way to check it for spark) . And the points were closed, so I opened them up to .020, and got fire.

Did you rotate the engine till the points were opened the maximum amount and then set to .020"?

[953 nut 60,057]

3 hours ago, AHS said:

Wow! @953 nut the motor is a 1970. 99% sure. where will I find what camshaft it has? I have ordered a head gasket for it, ( I took off some of the head  bolts in order to paint the engine tin) 

Any Kohler engine newer than 1966 has the Automatic Compression Release cam shaft. On older engines the cover for the cam gear can be removed to be sure if it is a spark retard or ACR cam. First picture is ACR, second is spark retard.

 

[AHS 1,546]

i found the problem! My valves were to tight! Today, I ordered gaskets for the Raider. Some one had got into the valves before... there was silicone on the gasket surface... I do remember the Raider backfiring when it was going!! All things coming together now!! Pretty clean for a 1970, no scars in the cylinder.

[AHS 1,546]

I’m thinking of shaving the head .010, just a bit! Or leaving it stock?  I dunno... look at how much valve clearance is there? 😁

[ebinmaine 72,706]

58 minutes ago, AHS said:

I’m thinking of shaving the head .010, just a bit! Or leaving it stock?  I dunno... look at how much valve clearance is there? 😁

if you do the thing where you run it on a piece of sandpaper until it flattens out the head that's going to shave it just a little bit anyways. I don't know how much you'll actually gain by literally having a machine shop do it though.

 

[lynnmor 7,823]

Is the valve stems tight in the guides, or are you saying that the valve lash is too little?  Your question ( I dunno... look at how much valve clearance is there?) is not understood.

[AHS 1,546]

6 minutes ago, lynnmor said:

Is the valve stems tight in the guides, or are you saying that the valve lash is too little?  Your question ( I dunno... look at how much valve clearance is there?) is not understood.

No, there is to much valve clearance... the intake valve is almost tight up against the nut... I dunno how...

[lynnmor 7,823]

1 minute ago, AHS said:

No, there is to much valve clearance... the intake valve is almost tight up against the nut... I dunno how...

  we are on a different wave length, perhaps a photo of the issue.

[The Tuul Crib 7,339]

Find a thick piece of glass or a 

perfectly flat surface and glue some sand 

paper maybe 500 to 1000 grit. I sprayed 

it with W D40

Place the head on the sand paper and

go in circular motion till clean. Use sharpe 

before you sand it to tell its flat.

[pfrederi 18,682]

24 minutes ago, AHS said:

No, there is to much valve clearance... the intake valve is almost tight up against the nut... I dunno how...

 

 

What you describe would be too little valve clearance

[AHS 1,546]

17 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

 

 

What you describe would be too little valve clearance

Way to much valve lift.. the intake valve is at like .002... I don’t know how?