My next custom Wheel Horse

[Pullstart 59,722]

2 hours ago, wallfish said:

I can probably find some but it was offset with a couple of sprockets and a chain.

Just a quick thought for something more "heavy duty" is to use a couple of universal joints in the shaft and maybe in the steering wheel shaft too. A Ross type of steering mechanism would be easy to offset and give reliability.

Or, if your ambitious enough, a plan I have for a build is use two frames welded side by side, cut one side off of two front axles after the axle pin and use coil over shocks from a frame to the front axles for front suspension. Now the frame will be wide enough to easily offset the steering with different length tie rods

 

 

That is a pretty awesome idea!  

 

I was thinking.  If I do use two frames for the stretch, I could flip the rear frame to weld them together.  It would look like a Z’d frame and add a lot of welding space!

 

I’m unsure of the total length needed, so I might just have to play mock up for a while with basic shapes until I get where I’d like to be.

[wallfish 15,919]

6 hours ago, 953 nut said:

John, do you think that a wider front axle would help with the steering problem a longer frame would create? 

 I do if done right. The wheels still need to turn a little tighter to reduce the turning radius but the stability will be there as well. Instead of steering like a 12 ft plank. Kevin seems to have a bunch of room where he is operating so it's probably not as crucial so he can weigh the options whether it's worth to do or not.

 

4 hours ago, pullstart said:

I’m unsure of the total length needed, so I might just have to play mock up for a while with basic shapes until I get where I’d like to be.

Don't forget, you can hang half or more of the bed off the back of the rear tires. Makes it easier to dump and shortens the wheel base. Seats on the front top edge of the bed will save about 18-24 inches of length. As you may be able to tell, a project like this has already ran through my head. Actually the little 2 seater doodle bug started out as your idea for this project but then it looked cool as just a little show cruiser so I never got around to building the Gator style custom.

Hate to give up all of my ideas but I just don't have time for doing all the fun stuff now. If you use the 2 bottom holes in the frame to attach to the 2 top holes in the trans, then use another frame below that and use the 2 top holes in the frame attached to the 2 bottom holes in the trans, (cut off the excess hanging down), you end up with a beefy stacked frame in the middle of your stretched limo. Add some bracing welded between the 2 frames.

The height of the top frame may end up making it like a console between the 2 seats but that gives a good place for adding lots of stuff like gauges, hydro valve controls, emergency brake handle, ect. ect. Now lengthen the front end instead of the back to fit your needs and the middle will now handle a much heavier load and not flex as much. Just another of things to think about and mock up. I have one partially built this way with the 2 frames attached to the trans. Used the top frame for the front axle, went with trailer hubs on the spidles and went with 6-12 tires and rims for the fronts. Makes it look more like a truck instead of a modified tractor.

 

P.S. you can flip the bottom frame over too

Edited January 9, 2020 by wallfish

[Pullstart 59,722]

3 minutes ago, wallfish said:

 I do if done right. The wheels still need to turn a little tighter to reduce the turning radius but the stability will be there as well. Instead of steering like a 12 ft plank. Kevin seems to have a bunch of room where he is operating so it's probably not as crucial so he can weigh the options whether it's worth to do or not.

 

Don't forget, you can hang half or more of the bed off the back of the rear tires. Makes it easier to dump and shortens the wheel base. Seats on the front top edge of the bed will save about 18-24 inches of length. As you may be able to tell, a project like this has already ran through my head. Actually the little 2 seater doodle bug started out as your idea for this project but then it looked cool as just a little show cruiser so I never got around to building the Gator style custom.

Hate to give up all of my ideas but I just don't have time for doing all the fun stuff now. If you use the 2 bottom holes in the frame to attach to the 2 top holes in the trans, then use another frame below that and use the 2 top holes in the frame attached to the 2 bottom holes in the trans, (cut off the excess hanging down), you end up with a beefy stacked frame in the middle of your stretched limo. Add some bracing welded between the 2 frames.

The height of the top frame may end up making it like a console between the 2 seats but that gives a good place for adding lots of stuff like gauges, hydro valve controls, emergency brake handle, ect. ect. Now lengthen the front end instead of the back to fit your needs and the middle will now handle a much heavier load and not flex as much. Just another of things to think about and mock up. I have one partially built this way with the 2 frames attached to the trans. Used the top frame for the front axle, went with trailer hubs on the spidles and went with 6-12 tires and rims for the fronts. Makes it look more like a truck instead of a modified tractor.

 

I think I understand all that, but if you happen to have time for a picture... feel free to shoot ‘em on here!

[wallfish 15,919]

Basic idea

 

[wallfish 15,919]

You can use a snow blade in front of the front tires an make a seat, floor and short console and sit over the front tires. Search Cushman images if you're looking for old school or UTV for more modern looking syle.

 

[adsm08 1,434]

12 hours ago, 953 nut said:

  

  John, do you think that a wider front axle would help with the steering problem a longer frame would create? 

 

Caster, it is going to need more caster.

[Pullstart 59,722]

I’ve been reading more into Ackerman steering.  It’s funny, Mr. Ackerman didn’t come up with the idea, he was a lawyer that stole and patented it!  

 

I wonder if anyone’s ever checked a Wheel Horse for Ackerman in stock form, how close it might be?

 

Regardless, my plan is to customize the spindles’ steering arms for the stretch and try to get it closer than just using stock spindles and calling it good.

Edited January 10, 2020 by pullstart
Photo

[953 nut 51,682]

11 hours ago, pullstart said:

ever checked a Wheel Horse for Ackerman in stock form, how close it might be?

         As it was from the factory or after a half century f beating and banging?              

[wallfish 15,919]

22 hours ago, pullstart said:

I wonder if anyone’s ever checked a Wheel Horse for Ackerman in stock form, how close it might be?

Never measured it but you can easily observe the difference in the angle of the tires when turned all the way. I'm not so sure it needs to be deadly accurate but it does make a difference to have each wheel tracking close to the correct radius. Otherwise, they are skidding to make up the difference which my guess would be mostly on the inside tire since the outside would probably have more traction from the weight transfer during the turn.

[19richie66 16,942]

Plan on doing some drifting Kevin?

In my humble opinion, I don’t think you would have to worry about it. Now if you make it 15’ long with dual axles, you might have trouble turning it without a lot of weight up front. 

Edited January 11, 2020 by 19richie66

[ebinmaine 63,137]

6 minutes ago, wallfish said:

does make a difference to have each wheel tracking close to the correct radius. Otherwise, they are skidding to make up the difference which my guess would be mostly on the inside tire since the outside would probably have more traction from the weight transfer during the turn

That's normally correct.

 

 

Not something you would be concerned with on a Wheelhorse but if a RWD high-powered vehicle has good traction and the front is light it can "push" through a turn.

 

Edited January 11, 2020 by ebinmaine

[Pullstart 59,722]

I know during the Putt Putt build, my frame swap from a ‘62 to a ‘64 chassis was a huge improvement in turning!  I haven’t 100% compared the reason why other than worn parts, but I’m glad I took @Jake Kuhn‘s offer on what I needed to upgrade!

[MikMacMike 479]

11 hours ago, 19richie66 said:

Plan on doing some drifting Kevin?

In my humble opinion, I don’t think you would have to worry about it. Now if you make it 15’ long with dual axles, you might have trouble turning it without a lot of weight up front. 

Ive been looking at adapting small rotors to the rear, and operated like a full size tractor, independantly, Makes for turning on a dime when its slippery or when plowing. Also you can slightly touch both brakes to make a ristriction and that turns your diff into a posi......we do this all the time when 4x4ing in the dirt or mud or when stuck.....The only reason id have a posi is for like on our alkie or the blower drag cars. Its really the only place there good. When I was out west I saw so many on icy roads, brand new dodges chevys and fords and oh yes cops too, they really drive like bimbos hahahaha, a diff is the best way to go. But if you do have duallies and you dont like adding the extra weight unless you need it for heavy pulling, being able to control the traction wheels separately is teeets up bro.

[wallfish 15,919]

I've built stretched tractors and noticed the difference immediately for the better when the angles were corrected for the longer wheel base. It would drift in the front and the turning radius was ridiculous. Seemed like it needed a football field to turn around. The angle doesn't need to be 100% accurate going that slow like it would going fast. Does it need to be done, without a doubt no, but it will definitely track better and make a difference if it is done. Correcting the angle made mine steer noticeably better, then I ground off the stops so it could get an even tighter turn.

Do the front angles last and try it out first without changing them, If you're not happy then correct them to match the wheel base and see if it makes any difference.

[Lee1977 6,217]

If you make a longer set of tie rods and go to the back of the steering triangle the inside wheel will turn sharper.l

Edited January 12, 2020 by Lee1977

[8ntruck 6,376]

Kevin - you trying to start a Pro Street trend on garden tractors with those big tires?

 

Ackerman will help turn a long wheel base tractor.  Ackerman is not desire able on a dirt track car, 'cause you are turning right to go left.

[Pullstart 59,722]

Bill, I don’t plan on going that fast... but if my girls get behind the wheel....  that’s another story.

[ebinmaine 63,137]

8 hours ago, Lee1977 said:

If you make a longer set of tie rods and go to the back of the steering triangle the inside wheel will turn sharper.l

 

@pullstart this'll help too.

I've done it as well.

At slow speed the inside tire should grip enough to grab into the turn a little.

 

[Pullstart 59,722]

Quick question for anyone with CAD skills, or more time on their hands than I do.

 

I am looking for the centerpoint bolt radius for the following bolt patterns:

 

5 on 4-1/4

5 on 4-1/2

5 on 4-3/4

 

there’s a rotary table here for the Bridgeport Mill.  I thought it would be fun to make some wheel adapters for myself.  If I can pick up the center of the piece, I’ll be able to drill and tap what is needed where needed.  I just don’t know an easy way to find my radius.

[Pullstart 59,722]

I found three wheels in the “junk” pile that I believe are the same.  They’re 5 on 4-3/4 according to this drawing.  One of the two with red pinstripe have fallen victim to friendly fire.  They were in an old pickup that was used to sight in a new .223 that my buddy picked up last fall.  I believe the other one is a match that has been painted over at one time.

 

 

[Pullstart 59,722]

Yep, these’ll do.  They are 27x8-15’s measuring just about 26-1/2” tall... overall width about 11-3/8”.

 

For comparison, the GT tires are 22.5x7.5-12.

 

 

[Pullstart 59,722]

Fronts... if I decide to go this big, I’m seeing a custom set of spindles in the future... if not the VW donors that the wheels came from.

 

 

[Pullstart 59,722]

This video will likely be nothing new to most all of you, but I thought I’d put one up anyways.

 

 

[8ntruck 6,376]

On 1/14/2020 at 8:18 PM, pullstart said:

Quick question for anyone with CAD skills, or more time on their hands than I do.

 

I am looking for the centerpoint bolt radius for the following bolt patterns:

 

5 on 4-1/4

5 on 4-1/2

5 on 4-3/4

 

there’s a rotary table here for the Bridgeport Mill.  I thought it would be fun to make some wheel adapters for myself.  If I can pick up the center of the piece, I’ll be able to drill and tap what is needed where needed.  I just don’t know an easy way to find my radius.

I did some trig. and came up with the following bolt center to bolt center distances per your sketch:

 

5 on 4 1/4 is 4.042

5 on 4 1/2 is 4.279

5 on 4 3/4 is 4.518

 

The above distances will help you determine the bolt circle on an existing wheel.

 

If you want a radius from the center of the wheel to the bolt center, you divide the bolt circle diameter by 2:

5 on 4 1/4 is 2.125 radius

5 on 4 1/2 is 2.25 radius

5 on 4 3/4 is 2.375 radius

 

The angle you need to turn your rotary table between bolt holes is 72 degrees (360/5).

 

I worked in the OEM wheel industry for 40 years.  This is easy peasy stuff.

 

Hope it helps.

 

 

[Pullstart 59,722]

6 hours ago, 8ntruck said:

I did some trig. and came up with the following bolt center to bolt center distances per your sketch:

 

5 on 4 1/4 is 4.042

5 on 4 1/2 is 4.279

5 on 4 3/4 is 4.518

 

The above distances will help you determine the bolt circle on an existing wheel.

 

If you want a radius from the center of the wheel to the bolt center, you divide the bolt circle diameter by 2:

5 on 4 1/4 is 2.125 radius

5 on 4 1/2 is 2.25 radius

5 on 4 3/4 is 2.375 radius

 

The angle you need to turn your rotary table between bolt holes is 72 degrees (360/5).

 

I worked in the OEM wheel industry for 40 years.  This is easy peasy stuff.

 

Hope it helps.

 

 

 

Bill, that is awesome!  Thanks a ton!  I’ll definitely be using these numbers, and have a feeling they’ll be useful for years to come!