Jump to content
Lonnie

Frustrated

Recommended Posts

Lonnie

I am really lost on this. Trying to test start the engine, get no sound regardless of what I do.  Wiring as 702 but that diagram does not show points and tractor has them any help will be appreciated and may save a 1962 wheelhorse life. Has no on off switch , just push button  Thank you 

BB0A96B0-D465-4236-B6A7-D9F02859A532.jpeg

2F48DE0D-49F0-4EE0-AE1A-42CBD9EDDE06.jpeg

EAEF1443-782F-4238-A07C-57647E29F2EE.jpeg

87CEDD17-AABD-4AC0-8B85-B4642BC5D7A4.jpeg

Edited by Lonnie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Stepney

"Just" a push button? I take it the push button is the starter. 
Where is the ignition getting power from?
For a basic test. You need to run positive terminal of battery to pos. of the coil. Negative of the coil goes to the points and the condenser, both wires on the same terminal of the coil. As long as the engine is grounded, it will work. 

Been a while since I sold my 702. But it had a key switch on the dash for IGN power to the coil, and a button for the starter. 

Edited by Stepney
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Tractorhead

Hi lonnie,

firstly Welcome to Redsqare.

 

maybe i missed your Message before, where you describe something,

but what tractor do you have, and witch engine ?

 

I read about connected like an 702 - Was it a 702 ?

and if so, what was your main troubles with it?

On your Picts, i just see one cable without connector and a unconnected cable (yello) 

but from where witch cable comes was a mistery for me about your Picts.

 

 

please describe a bit closer, what you have done and what was status of start to help you.

 

I will try to loosing your frustration.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Tractorhead
3 minutes ago, Stepney said:

"Just" a push button? I take it the push button is the starter. 
Where is the ignition getting power from?
For a basic test. You need to run positive terminal of battery to pos. of the coil. Negative of the coil goes to the points and the condenser, both wires on the same terminal of the coil. As long as the engine is grounded, it will work. 

Been a while since I sold my 702. But it had a key switch on the dash for IGN power to the coil, and a button for the starter. 

Same time posted..

the issue with the switch make sense to me, thats an info i miss.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Lonnie
18 minutes ago, Tractorhead said:

Same time posted..

the issue with the switch make sense to me, thats an info i miss.

 

18 minutes ago, Tractorhead said:

Same time posted..

the issue with the switch make sense to me, thats an info i miss.

Yes push button is all I see that would start it 

CFC3C8D5-C84E-4565-9A04-BC30546FFEB1.jpeg

6AAF1FF9-B35A-4561-ADF3-5C5C9F27096E.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
ZXT

Looks to me like someone was "hot wiring" it since there is no ignition switch and simply a push button. If there is no switch controlling power to the coil, then it obviously won't run. 

 

Run the wire connected to the "bat" post on the coil to the hot side of the battery and it should run if everything else in the ignition system is in good shape. This obviously isn't a permanent fix, as you'll have to disconnect the wire from the battery to shut it off, the battery won't charge, etc.. but it'll at least let you know it runs. 

 

The wiring harnesses on these tractors aren't all that complicated. You could probably build one yourself without too much trouble. 

Edited by ZXT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Lonnie
39 minutes ago, Tractorhead said:

Same time posted..

the issue with the switch make sense to me, thats an info i miss.

Actually I was told mine is a 552. Everyone has told me to wire it like a 702 

BFDF50F1-D6EE-4504-A86B-61432971AA7E.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Lonnie
1 hour ago, Tractorhead said:

Hi lonnie,

firstly Welcome to Redsqare.

 

maybe i missed your Message before, where you describe something,

but what tractor do you have, and witch engine ?

 

I read about connected like an 702 - Was it a 702 ?

and if so, what was your main troubles with it?

On your Picts, i just see one cable without connector and a unconnected cable (yello) 

but from where witch cable comes was a mistery for me about your Picts.

 

 

please describe a bit closer, what you have done and what was status of start to help you.

 

I will try to loosing your frustration.

It is a K181 engine and according to what I read it’s a 552. But the wiring for 552 don’t show points either, someone told me to use the 702 wiring diagram and wire it like that. I just tried connecting coil hot to battery bolt and still nothing. Neg battery cable is from battery to hold on side of tractor. I was told the yellow wire is extra for accessories. It don’t have a on off switch ( I did buy one ) it just has the button to push to start it. My trouble is I am trying to do this and know nothing but will learn for sure. 

Edited by Lonnie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
stevasaurus

OK...Lonnie...the K-181-S is an 8 hsp Kohler.  The 552 was a 5 hsp Tecumseh.  The 702 is a K-161-S kohler.  If is was wired like a 552, it is not going to start or run.  You have the 8 hsp and it should be wired like an 857...I think.  You have the starter generator, coil and points.  I think I would get rid of the push button start and get the key ignition.  Let's see what others think about that.  Here is the wiring diagram for the K-181-S.  It should work...not sure where you got that engine looking at the spec #.  :occasion-xmas:

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Lonnie
10 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

OK...Lonnie...the K-181-S is an 8 hsp Kohler.  The 552 was a 5 hsp Tecumseh.  The 702 is a K-161-S kohler.  If is was wired like a 552, it is not going to start or run.  You have the 8 hsp and it should be wired like an 857...I think.  You have the starter generator, coil and points.  I think I would get rid of the push button start and get the key ignition.  Let's see what others think about that.  Here is the wiring diagram for the K-181-S.  It should work...not sure where you got that engine looking at the spec #.  :occasion-xmas:

 

 

You are 100 percent right, first diagram I have seen that looks same as things on my tractor. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
stevasaurus

Being a starter generator...I would think you should have a toggle switch (if not a key)  to give power to the push button.  The push button would turn the starter to start the engine and then release to let the generator run to keep the battery charged.  You would then throw the toggle switch or turn the key off to stop the engine.  does that help.

   The Tecumseh's had a stater thing going on and would not even be compatible with the way the Kohlers work.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
stevasaurus

Even if you wired it like the old 702...which also has a starter generator...it has a toggle switch in line with the push button.  You can get by with the right ignition key (number of prongs on the back) or the dinosaur way with the toggle/push button.  Let's see what you think and what others may add now.  :orcs-cheers:

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
clueless

So you may have a 552, or a 702, same tractor but different engines and wiring. You are trying to put a different engine on it, if it's a 702 (kohler) the wiring should be about the same, but the 8hp may be a later model, might need a little wiring tweaking. look at it this way, you might have a Ford engine or a Chevy engine, both will work but you need to know what the original engine was. What most of us need to know and you is it a 702 or a 552.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Stepney

From a mechanical standpoint, none of that really matters. An 8hp Kohler with a button starter is wired just the same as a 7hp. If it "was wired as a 702" but there is no ignition switch, then obviously there was something overlooked. Likely something simple.
It's original model, be it a 552 or a 702, will bear no effect on the wiring demands of the engine. 

The three terminals on the starter regulator are no different than a 702, nor is the ignition. Wire it as a 702 and it'll work. 

I guess you could go like an 854/7 with a key starter, but I don't really see the point. 

The 552 would have had a ground-to-stop magneto ignition with a button starter. And I believe the 502 used a manual rope starter, with just a button to kill the engine?
If there was only 1 open hole for a button, perhaps this was a 502?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
953 nut

:confusion-confused:             Your previous thread was given some good suggestions, read it over again.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Lonnie
3 hours ago, Lonnie said:

You are 100 percent right, first diagram I have seen that looks same as things on my tractor. 

One thing I don’t understand. The wire going from middle prong on starter, does it get spliced into a wire that will go from battery to key switch? ( one that say green ) 

822A3CD7-7719-40ED-9C7C-4D0438F6B3DF.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
RandyLittrell

5b202ef98cc34_wiring-starter-generatorwithbatteryignition.jpg.24ab0ca0cab6d9b8f7d7ffb2a7a42fbc.jpg.ec3506d18f3ce92597bb5155b9e2534e.jpgHere is a good wiring diagram, I wish I could remember who posted it. 

 

 

 

 

 

If you want to just

image.jpeg.4f9c988594d45f196723ccfe072dddfa.jpeg

 

 

 

I would use the first one. If I were smarter, I would delete the second one, but alas, I am not. 

 

The second image you have to have a switch capable of carrying a starting current or use the switch and a tractor push button that is capable of pushing the current. I would use the first one with the solenoid. Much better design. I always ask for a solenoid for a older ford ford pickup. Its a pretty universal design. 

 

 

 

 

Randy

Edited by RandyLittrell
  • Excellent 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Tractorhead
5 hours ago, Lonnie said:

 

Yes push button is all I see that would start it 

CFC3C8D5-C84E-4565-9A04-BC30546FFEB1.jpeg

 

 

Hi Lonnie,

when i looked closer at this pict, i see a round below that gearsign.

maybe there was in the past the switch, you didn‘t find, and we all missing.

 

So it seems to me, somebody has „reworked“ or reconditioned it.

 

also if i look at the Terminals on your regulator, they didn‘t look that clean.

 

how about your Skills in electricity (sorry to ask for but it‘s recommanded to know) 

do you have access to a multimeter and you are familar to work with?

i just ask that, because with measuring, things can be fixed quicker.

 

have you a pict of the whole tractor, that it‘s condition can be seen?

 

while you tell nothing at all, are the connections the go to chassis are in good condition?

(clean and rustfree) 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Lonnie
37 minutes ago, Tractorhead said:

 

Hi Lonnie,

when i looked closer at this pict, i see a round below that gearsign.

maybe there was in the past the switch, you didn‘t find, and we all missing.

 

So it seems to me, somebody has „reworked“ or reconditioned it.

 

also if i look at the Terminals on your regulator, they didn‘t look that clean.

 

how about your Skills in electricity (sorry to ask for but it‘s recommanded to know) 

do you have access to a multimeter and you are familar to work with?

i just ask that, because with measuring, things can be fixed quicker.

 

have you a pict of the whole tractor, that it‘s condition can be seen?

 

while you tell nothing at all, are the connections the go to chassis are in good condition?

(clean and rustfree) 

 

Please don’t be sorry to ask anything, I know so little would scare you but I really wanting to learn to do this. I do have mutimeater. Will get someone to show me how to use it correctly tomorrow 

E31C4515-FB92-4AD4-B1AA-3047124F47F9.jpeg

AEA2ACB8-AFC1-41CB-9B34-2B26BD007158.jpeg

AD6687F2-5F6B-4CAA-8B4A-8BD9F41D24C6.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
bc.gold

Have you tested the generator without the belt on to see if it will motor. from the battery positive terminal jumper power to the "A" terminal on the generator.

 

If the generator motors I would like you to do a load test using a piece of wood against the belt pulley, does the generator continue to motor or stall. Do not keep the wood in place very long as a lot of heat is made from the friction.

 

As a kid buying a used generator from the wrecker this is how the generator was tested, if it would motor then it would also charge, if it will not motor then there's an internal issue, worn or stuck brushes are the most common problems.

 

Sometimes a commutator will go out of round, egg shaped a conditions that will bounce the brushes away from the commutator, easy fix remove the armature then have it trued and undercut between the copper segments.

 

A short circuit in the armature is usually tested with a growler but a multi meter will also detect a short.

 

If a generator has been hard bumped by rough handling or long term storage it can loose its residual magnesium this lost magnesium is easily replaced by flashing the generator from a DC power source.

 

Generators that serve a dual purpose as starters are flashed every time its used as a starter.

 

Also a generator will charge a battery that is stone dead, while an alternator requires a battery to have a bit of life left in it before its able to recharge a battery.

 

Let us know if the generator motors.

 

 

 

Edited by bcgold

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Tractorhead
3 hours ago, Lonnie said:

Please don’t be sorry to ask anything, I know so little would scare you but I really wanting to learn to do this. I do have mutimeater. Will get someone to show me how to use it correctly tomorrow 

E31C4515-FB92-4AD4-B1AA-3047124F47F9.jpeg

AEA2ACB8-AFC1-41CB-9B34-2B26BD007158.jpeg

AD6687F2-5F6B-4CAA-8B4A-8BD9F41D24C6.jpeg

 

By the Way nice Tractor you have.

 

show me a pict of it, and i will give you advices how to use.

No professional was anytime fallen out of heaven.

We all learned it, and if you willing i will be passion to guide you, how to use it.

 

But i think we do this in a different thread for others, that if can be found later better in search.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Tractorhead

Hi Lonnie,

While i investigate you picts a bit close, i think i seen a lot loosen Wires.

if so i doubt if it actual in a running condition and needs bit preinstall and several checks.

 

for a first test, i would do a first „worksetup“ we will used for testing.

I will guide you step by step, to solve your troubles.

 

I‘ll think we start with @RandyLittrell  second diagram, that give an easy overview to explain

what have to be connected where.

i will use it allway‘s as reference in our Troubleshooting.

 

CEC5427A-3236-4455-8BF4-17C63724D316.jpeg.516ee84fc9cca001bd0a7809b5193334.jpeg

 

 

Safety things first,

On each Step we must bolt or loosen anything electrical parts,

please disconnect the Battery Ground Terminal and secure it before, to prevent any short.

 

 

That is prefect to explain everything you can check.

The first thing we need is a well precharged Battery. 

Checked with multimeter in dc Voltage setting, BLACK tip in com ( ground) and RED tip in V connector, 

set Black tip to ground on battery and Red tip to +Terminal on battery, it shall be displayed at least 12,5V to be useful.

if so, where fine to go to next step.

 

Found the Ground wire from chassis or Engine or better both to battery negative terminal

it must be a thicker wire.

 

Check by view, if the connectors are free of rust or better, open the screws where they bolted, 

clean the contact area with a Steelbrush and also the connector,

use some Vaseline to protect contact areas (applicated with small brush)

and reconnect the Wire. Take also a closer look on the connectors itself,

if you unsure about their State, give us a closer pict to verify.

 

If you did this, next step will be to inspect Main Powerline.

On your positive Battery pole must be a thicker Wire and a thinner Wire together connected.

(the thicker must be similar size to Ground wire) witch go to the Mainswitch (you telled there wasn‘t)

this is in the Shown diagram the big Red wire to Switch Contact „S“ and the thinner goes to mid on the regulator.

 

On each Wire we inspected, we use same procedure by Cleaning the Contacts and protect with Vaseline,

just a bit to prevent quick corrosion.

 

Did you find this big Red Wire?

if yes, where was it connected now?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Tractorhead

Hi Lonnie,

 

any new‘s?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Lonnie
16 minutes ago, Tractorhead said:

Hi Lonnie,

 

any new‘s?

Hi. My note to you must not went,   Everything test ok except the starter, had a friend that knows some help me. Thank you.  Tried to look you up on Facebook but could not find you.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Tractorhead

i have an account in  FB, but reduced my activity there dramatically.

my life come back to Real live.

 

A second issue was, i moved to Outback, where internet works,

with a speed, seems like you drumming the Bit‘s.

Edited by Tractorhead
  • Like 1
  • Excellent 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...