Salt and dirt roads

[Cetan08 311]

I live near the end of a dirt road that is 3/4+ mile long and is mostly clay. In the summer it is as hard as cement but come spring it gets like quicksand in places. Originally it was just cut with a dozer and had tons of rock dumped on it. The road remained pretty good for years and was just smoothed out at times with a tractor and box blade.One of these deals where all the people that own lots on the road are responsible for the roads repair. It's not a right of way but a jointly owned lot with our road on it.

Problem is, only a couple of us ever takes care of it. Lawyer says fix it and Sue the others to get money back. Yeah right.

Okay, back to issue. At the very bottom of the hill, road is pretty steep, last year we graded about 500ft. Of the road, laid down Geo mate and used #2 for a base and crushed lime Stone on top. Really nice. The remainder of the road is bad.

I was told that putting salt on a dirt road destroys it but several states do it not only for ice control but also to keep dust down in the summer. This thing is flat out dangerous in the winter if it gets icy so I am tempted to salt it but in the past we have had folks salt spots and the road went to mush. Even with chains on my truck I have little control coming down the hill.

Is salt what destroys the road or is something else going on? Any ideas on other ice control solutions.

[Ed Kennell 41,989]

I don't have an answer, but am interested in this as I maintain a dirt right of way.       I will say, after fighting wash out for many years on a steep section, I laid down 100' of black top millings, and it worked amazingly well to stop the wash out.

[Sarge 3,465]

From what I know - it all depends on the soil type under the road. Once the salt is mixed into the ice/snow and turns it into water it can penetrate the base and cause problems - all dependent upon soil conditions. If the ground wasn't truly compacted or contained too much sand, the problem can be worse. You'd almost have to get someone to take soil samples and go from there. If it is a common-use lane, local jurisdictions could have an impact on what can be done, just depends on how things are set up with the property owners and local codes. That can turn into a rabbit hole you don't want - so be careful.

 

You need to get everyone involved on the same page. I'd just try to stick to snow removal and leave it at that - using chemicals can cause a problem. If nothing else, hire a service to clear the road when needed and the bill can be shared by everyone that lives there. That removes the responsibility of keeping up with the thing and distributes the expense equally to all involved in the road's use. If you can get the self-locking 3/4 gray stone, that stuff will lock down like concrete and even withstands being plowed when soft a lot better. There will be cleanup and maintenance work each spring to restore what was moved by the plow - but that's a small price to pay and some contractors also do lawn care, some even have the ability to "clean up their mess come spring", so to speak. The guys that mow my Mom's place now do it that way - they clear the drive in the winter as needed, clean up the displaced rock in the spring and mow during the summer for a reasonable price. Takes a lot of work off my back and she's happy to have it just taken care of for the price. There were a lot of times in the winter when it took me half a day to clear this property and parking lot, then load up and travel 15 miles to do their place, as well as help them clean it up in the spring. For what the contractor charges, they are money ahead, really. 

 

Sarge

[pfrederi 18,670]

I live on a township maintained dirt road.  The do not use salt just 2a stone for traction.  Other townships use smaller stone but out roadmaster /supervisor is 85 years old and "has always done it that way"  hey it works.  but tn the spring it takes a sweepster to get the stones out of my yard and back on the road.

 

They never use salt  It would start a serious freeze thaw cycle that would make mud season last all winter.

 

They use calcium Chloride for dust control

 

Edited January 25, 2019 by pfrederi

[oliver2-44 10,717]

As Ed mentioned, black top millings seem to help. A out farm, there is a road that is common to several places behind ours (similar to your situation, but we are the first place, so heaviest traveled. Like you, only a few pay for road maintenance.) Our road has a good rock base but the top would turn to an inch of slick soup. When the State or county has a highway job, we have gotten approval from the Highway Dept Resident Engineer or County Commissioner, to have the millings.  If the job is close the contractor may haul them for free, or split the trucking cost with us. Once, the job was right in front of the farm, and we were able to get the contractor to blade out the millings after his regular work hours for a reasonable cost, (A  few cases of beer delivered to the crew on Friday afternoon) 

 

24 minutes ago, Ed Kennell said:

     I will say, after fighting wash out for many years on a steep section, I laid down 100' of black top millings, and it worked amazingly well to stop the wash out.

 

here the county has some roads they classify as a "third class road" That means the county doesn't own it, but they blade it a few times of year due to the number of people living on it.  It's real fussy of who's road they will blade.

Edited January 25, 2019 by oliver2-44

[WHX?? 51,749]

13 minutes ago, Cetan08 said:

Is salt what destroys the road or is something else going on?

Ultimately yes. Salt melts the ice which then water runs down through cracks and into the base and the salt loses it's power (gets diluted), refreezes and heaves the road. Like Sarge said. Usually not a problem on a dirt road but asphalt forget it. Around here we have plenty of sand and that's what they use on side roads.

[pfrederi 18,670]

I live in the Marcellus Shale Gas area.  I am surrounded by gas pads and pipelines.  The companies have to bond the paved state highways so they prefer to use the township dirt roads when ever possible.  Fixing up a dirt farm road to with stand the heavy equipment and volume of traffic is a big undertaking.  When they put the pad in next to me they had to fix up my road  (which shows up on a 1853 map). They have to move in the drilling rigs then the fracking equipment and then several million gallons of water.  During the frack 800-1000 triaxle water trucks went by my house every 24 hours from September to late January.

 

To prep the road they brought in a strange machine.  (I can't find the pictures right now)  It was about 35-40 feet long  8ft wide had 4 large tires one on each corner and was essentially a giant rototiller.  It moved very slowly and dug down 12-18".  It bounced around as it it big rocks under the road.  I asked the operator what happens when it hits the big rocks he said something breaks ...either the rock or the machine.  The shuttled in dry bulk cement trailers which transferred the dry portland cement which they blew into a straight rig truck that had a spreader on the back.  He went over next spreading the dry powder then the rototiller went back over it mixing the portland in.  Supervisor said they put almost a bag equivalent of cement for every sq yard of road. Next was a sheeps foot roller and then a long period of vibratory roller work.

 

The road work was almost 2 year ago now. it has held up really well even after all the traffic.  They never put any salt on in the winter I live at the top of steep grade.  The sand boxes and semi water tanks had serious issues of traction.  They had a chained up road grader 24 hours a day to help pull them up the hill. and between times he scrapped off the snow

 

So if you have a few hundred thousand dollars you could probably fix up your road the same way

Edited January 25, 2019 by pfrederi

[Cetan08 311]

These are all excellent replies. I had a fellow tell me once that he would fix the road for $80.000. I didn't respond to him. His price was probably very reasonable but with 10 people owning lots and only two ever paying anything, not happening. If you can imagine, three of the owners have what they call a Chinese septic system, a 55 gallon barrel drained into the back yard. They moved out but still own the property.

I will check into the asphalt, good idea.

Only 4 of us in the area now so traffic is good and very quiet.

Our land purchase agreements clearly state that we are all responsible for the road but the local attorneys are cowards and won't do anything even if paid. I own several lots and all paid for along with my house so I have to deal with it.

Besides, I am one of those, you know, "crazy Vietnam vets," so I am pretty much left alone.  Funny how my service keeps people from getting to know the nice person that I am.

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

[pfrederi 18,670]

Rent one of these!!!

 

 

[Cetan08 311]

2 hours ago, pfrederi said:

Rent one of these!!!

 

 

Now there is a good idea. They don't have a noise law where I live so I could start working about 5am so I could avoid blocking the neighbors from going to work. Not sure I could even find something like that around my neck of the woods.

I like it.

[JoeM 8,345]

I was reading your thread and see you used geotech fabric? My son used it on his drive and they don't even salt it and they have sinking areas. I used tensar under a layer of #3 rock then chocked it with #2. works very well. We were going to pave it but that would just be a waste of money, it is solid.

[ericj 1,579]

instead of using salt try using fine stone for traction. The school district I worked for was too cheap to use salt unless totally necessary So they used what we call cinders, pea size stone, or like someone said above you could also use sand. that gets messy those.

 

 

 

 

 

eric j   

[Cetan08 311]

12 minutes ago, ericj said:

instead of using salt try using fine stone for traction. The school district I worked for was too cheap to use salt unless totally necessary So they used what we call cinders, pea size stone, or like someone said above you could also use sand. that gets messy those.

 

 

 

 

 

eric j   

We have a coal fired power plant not far away and I heard that I could get the cinder for $8.00 a ton. Might just stock pile some at the top of the hill.

I will check it out next week.

Thanks

[dcrage 630]

27 minutes ago, Cetan08 said:

We have a coal fired power plant not far away and I heard that I could get the cinder for $8.00 a ton. Might just stock pile some at the top of the hill.

I will check it out next week.

Thanks

 

I would highly recommend cinders for winter traction. I was trustee for our subdivision for 10+ years starting in the late ‘80s. The best snow and ice guy I had for our roads used cinders. I do not know if he mixed salt, I don’t think he did. This treatment did a great job ice or snow. And it was used on the road prior to it being paved. The cinders just mixed in with the gravel. Never saw any road deterioration. Only complaints I ever heard were about having to clean there cars after we paved the road. Don’t think that  would be a problem with a gravel surface. 

 

Cinder piles need to be kept dry. Getting them wet will freeze into a big black iceberg. 

[ericj 1,579]

coal ash is excellent ice melt and traction support. my brother use to use coal ash on his steep drive. usually the hard part is getting enough of it to make a difference. Around here we had several coal fire power houses, but they have been getting shut down and converted to gas. I also thought that the government thought of the ash as hazardous material and wouldn't allow it to be sold and used as anti-skid

 

 

 

 

 

eric j   

[Sarge 3,465]

That's just a modified surface grinder - there are some versions that have a built-in hopper used to mix in different rock types or in your case, cement. Again, it all goes back to soil type and what you have to work with. Asphalt millings are good, but they must be properly bladed after being laid - especially if the temperature is hot outside as they will easily lock back together and start forming hardened chunks that will create bumps and holes. Geo-tex is a great product, but if it is used on the wrong base rock layer without proper compaction its a waste of time and will actually cause problems. We had to build a network of roads in a corn field for a solar plant on a job a few years ago - that took 4 different types of rock, 2 layers of Geo-tex, silt fabric and a lot of time with heavy rollers to get the compaction correct. Once it was all done, that held up perfectly despite a lot of flooding rain and heavy equipment traffic while we built the plant - a total of a 2yr job. Roads are still there and look just as good as when we built them. 

 

You really have to identify your soil type. I'm no expert on the subject by any means, but the wrong type of black dirt cannot be used as a base of any sort. The right types, like around my area will compact nearly as good as concrete and last a long time if properly covered. It's all about sand and clay content, but more specifically what types of each. If it cannot be compacted, that will require removing a certain depth to be able to build a proper base, then a top layer of choice - such as asphalt millings. Most areas now recycle those millings back into the local roads and are highly valued by the asphalt companies since it saves them a lot of money on raw materials. Around here, its nearly impossible to get ahold of any more than a straight truck sized load. Years ago, we couldn't find enough places to dump the stuff as the State wouldn't allow it to be re-used - we built up one farmer's gravel road up nearly 18" deep and graded/rolled it in for free just to get rid of the material. Now, its recycled, go figure. 

 

Sarge

[AMC RULES 37,196]

Can we see a pict here, of the area you are wanting to rework? 

[Ed Kennell 41,989]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

 Asphalt millings are good, but they must be properly bladed after being laid - especially if the temperature is hot outside as they will easily lock back together and start forming hardened chunks that will create bumps and holes.. Around here, its nearly impossible to get ahold of any more than a straight truck sized load. Years ago, we couldn't find enough places to dump the stuff as the State wouldn't allow it to be re-used - we built up one farmer's gravel road up nearly 18" deep and graded/rolled it in for free just to get rid of the material. Now, its recycled, go figure.  

 

Sarge

When PennDOT  mills and repaves our state roads they use local contractors yards to park their equipment and dump the millings.  The contractors then resell the millings for $5-$10 a ton.

[Cetan08 311]

Don't have any black dirt here. I suspect that the clay on the road was hauled in when they built it. The soil here is such that if you dig a hole it takes five times as much to refill it once disturbed. The roads were cut back in the 50's and 60's to drill shallow oil Wells but they only produce small amounts of gas now.

There are springs all over the hill. Several years ago we had a hole develop in the road so just for fun we lowered a camera down and at 35 feet we hit surface water. Put 8 inch blocks and everything to plug and fill it. On top of the hill with heavy traffic it continues to need fill for holes developing. As was mentioned, it needs compacting bad. On the down slopes the hill seems to slide or slip down. I believe that I am just going to have to live with it. Originally the road was built up higher than the surrounding area but rather than add more material when needed several idiots came in with dozers and now it is a foot or more below and all the rock off the road was pushed into the sides.

At this point no emergency services can get up the hill and at times I have to use chains on my 4x4 truck. My wife and I have no children so we left everything to a wounded soldier and his Family that fell in love with it when visiting. So when the road gets so bad that the others cannot get to their homes not sell them, they might fix it.

[Cetan08 311]

Just a couple of pics. of the road today. Sorry it is snow covered but just for perspective. Only three homes up top, mine, a neighbors that is onle here in the summer and a rental. The one picture is just the first drop and then the road drops two more times before getting to the state road. All the drops are about the same incline.

[AMC RULES 37,196]

 Looking like you have no consideration for drainage there.

[Digger 66 3,488]

What do the other homeowners along the road do ?

 

[Sarge 3,465]

Your biggest problem is drainage - it either needs to have a proper ditch on both sides or build the road up until it is higher than the surround banks. Otherwise, it will just collect water and get saturated, which is why it keeps creating holes. With those current elevations - that will require a lot of material to say the least. If the wet areas are not cored out and addressed before trying to fix it, you'll lose the battle with soft spots and holes. I'd say you're pretty much stuck with it as-is, the cost to repair it correctly is astronomical, to say the least. The only other option other than building it up or ditching the sides is to dig down and add French drains to take the water away or tile it heavily - in the long run, it still doesn't work as they silt in and fill up with debris.

 

Sarge

[Cetan08 311]

17 hours ago, Digger 66 said:

What do the other homeowners along the road do ?

 

So far I am the only one driving on the road. Everyone else is walking. But then I am 69 and the are in their 30s.

 

[Cetan08 311]

43 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Your biggest problem is drainage - it either needs to have a proper ditch on both sides or build the road up until it is higher than the surround banks. Otherwise, it will just collect water and get saturated, which is why it keeps creating holes. With those current elevations - that will require a lot of material to say the least. If the wet areas are not cored out and addressed before trying to fix it, you'll lose the battle with soft spots and holes. I'd say you're pretty much stuck with it as-is, the cost to repair it correctly is astronomical, to say the least. The only other option other than building it up or ditching the sides is to dig down and add French drains to take the water away or tile it heavily - in the long run, it still doesn't work as they silt in and fill up with debris.

 

Sarge

I totally agree. When I first moved up here the phone company had buried the phone cable down the middle of the road so when you grade it you cut the cable. And like I mentioned, all the know it all's would dozer the road flat and cut it lower rather than fill the holes and smooth it off. Then we get the renters that when told they must have 4x4 to live up here, they put bug mud tires on a two wheel drive and cut ruts making water channels. Good thing is, they are the ones walking now. Karma has no respect. I am just hoping that the dead beats sell out and then I can school the new people on getting the road fixed right.