Gas prices

[saguaro 0]

I wonder how long it's going to keep going down. Filled the car up for $2.08 a gal. :banghead:

[fretscha 0]

Yes that

[canam1991 2]

michigan its 2.70 avg. gallon????? way better than 3.90 it went up 1 cent to day?????

[saguaro 0]

Yes that

[KyBlue 652]

Wish DIesel would come down a bit more... still hurts to fill up the 04 but its gettin 20+ mpg so i cant really complain!

[fretscha 0]

In Summer the price was at 7,90 $ a gal. But i drive a Volkswagen Golf TDI Diesel. Diesel is at the moment at 4,96 $ a gal. What is the price for Diesel in the USA?

[canam1991 2]

more than gas about 3.10 which is stupid because diesel is first of the drum? <_

[saguaro 0]

In Summer the price was at 7,90 $ a gal. But i drive a Volkswagen Golf TDI Diesel. Diesel is at the moment at 4,96 $ a gal. What is the price for Diesel in the USA?

I was a bit surprised diesel was around 2.30.

[wh500special 2,053]

more than gas about 3.10 which is stupid because diesel is first of the drum? <_<

Times have changed. Diesel used to be considerably less than regular gasoline because the demand for both was much lower than it is now. Sure, it is energetically easier to distill diesel from the crude oil than it is gasoline, but the two are competing for the same oil.

It used to be that diesel was a secondary, lower value product than gasoline but that was in the days before refineries could more easily produce whatever product they wanted (within reasonable parameters) from the crude. Now, they can - again within certain limits - select which products to make preferentially over others. Diesel, having a higher molecular weight may be easier to get, but there is actually less of it in a given amount of oil than "lighter" gasoline. So, basically, if you make MORE diesel you make significantly LESS gasoline from that same barrel (it's not a 1:1 tradeoff). hence, the price is not only tied to gasoline, but it is more profit intensive for a refiner to make more gas than diesel.

Granted, there is a higher US tax now on diesel than there used to be which is where some of the price desparity comes from, but the demand for diesel - driven largely by the heavy truck and off road markets - is pretty inelastic. Gasoline, being a consumer product, has a demand that fluctuates more widely than does that for diesel...which is why you see more price volatility on the gas side of the island at the fueling station. And helps to account for the slow decline in diesel prices relative to gas recently.

As I understand it, Europe taxes gasoline much more heavily than diesel so the price of diesel remains substantially less. European refineries, because of the taxation driven market conditions, are also actually optimized to produce more diesel fuel than gasoline relative to US operating conditions.

European environmental regulations are more concerned with total CO2 emissions than we are in the US (we regulate based on smog/pollution products and not CO2 or fuel economy) so they have devised a price-demand system wherein the higher efficiency diesel engine is the preferred powerplant. That's why the majority (roughly 60%) of European cars, like fretscha's TDI, are diesel. Again, European regulators are trying harder to reduce fuel consumption and CO2 emissions than we do here - our concentration is on smog prevention.

The advantages of diesel engines are numerous, but the principle one is the greater fuel economy they can provide. In general, two largely equivalent engines - one gas, one diesel - will experience about a 30% difference in fuel efficiency. Diesels also tend to produce more torque than comparably sized gasoline engines, but sacrifice high revving performance so the driving experience can be much different.

Thanks to poor marketing, cheap fuel, and unfavorable public perception diesel engines are generally shunned by the auto buying public in the US. A few models have persisted through the years (Mercedes and VW being the most numerous) but despite phenomenal relative fuel economy, selling diesel autos in the US has been an uphill battle. That is changing somewhat with the recent release of the common rail diesels in vehicles from Mercedes, VW, Chrysler (Jeep), and soon from BMW, Audi (a VW division) and even Subaru and Honda. These new designs have to meet the tightest emissions regulations in the world so the economy advantages experienced in Europe are scaled back a bit but still a big improvement over conventional gasoline engines (and can rival real world hybrid efficiencies in some cases without the complxities of a second motor and battery system).

There is always interesting diesel reading on the VW TDI forum (www.tdiclub.net) and there you will find very vocal fans of Rudolf's compression ignition gem. But, as much as I don't want to see it happen, I think the soon-to-be-coming renaissance of the diesel passenger car in the US may be short lived. Direct Injection technology (fuel squirted right into the combustion chamber instead of the intake manifold) for gasoline engines is improving power and efficiencies of gasoline engines close enough to that of diesels that the advantages of burning diesel are shrinking. And, the gasoline emissions are easier to clean up than those from diesel.

By injecting the gasoline directly into the cylinder, higher compression ratios can be used without detonation (knocking) because the incoming fuel charge cools the compressed gasses below the autoignition temperature of the fuel. Then the spark plug ignites the mixture and that higher compression ratio - which is the same as the expansion ratio - can do more work than in a conventional engine. More work can equate to higher efficiencies.

This summer I rented a VW Passat sedan to drive from Indiana to the show in Gettysburg. It is a fairly large car with plenty of power from its tiny 2.0L 4 cylinder engine. But, that engine is a direct injection, turbocharged miracle of engineering that cranked out 35 mpg average for the whole trip on regular unleaded gas. Maintained 70 mph on the PA turnpike through the mountains and puttered around Gettysburg happily. Great mileage, plenty of power, and a nicely sized car. To get equivalent fuel economy in a conventional gas engined car probably would have requried a smaller vehicle like a Dodge Caliber, Chevy Cobalt, etc. Direct injection is coming soon to all automakers and I know, for example, that Ford is betting their future on the technology.

Sure, the newly released diesel VW Jetta (Bora to Fretscha) TDI would have probably averaged 40-45 mpg on that same trip, but the cost premium for the fuel and for the engine might make it a tough sell for all but the diesel addicts since it seems very few people can convert mpg to dollars per mile to compare the actual operation cost of the two different fuels.

Now, don't get me wrong, I am a huge diesel advocate and have been for many years. Their efficiency just makes sense to me in most motoring applications. But as long as gas stays cheaper in the US it will be difficult to convert our fleet to run on compression ignition engines. And, to be honest, I don't think our refineries - which are optimized for gasoline - could meet diesel demand if we all switched.

Enjoy the low fuel prices while they last, because when the economy turns around and people start buying/driving again they are likely to rise in response to renewed demand.

(I'm not trying to start a political/taxation and as I look back through this I don't see anything controversial that might stir the pot. I welcome the moderators to edit at will should it be necessary.)

Steve

[KyBlue 652]

Diesel here in Kentucky is still 3.45 ish.. some are a few cents less...some places are a bit higher..

[Nick 13]

In this area gas is still around $2.50 and diesel $3.45 and also some are higher than that.

I thought some of the manual shift VW diesels were rated around 50mpg. Also on the diesel car subject another reason they might not do well is the strict air standards set by California. They cant even buy a New diesel car in that state. There are 12 or 13 other states that follow the tougher CA standards but Im not sure if they allow diesel cars to be sold. Some of the newer clean burn diesel designs might be able to pass the standards.

Tried finding information on the diesel regulations and found this. Ford building a small diesel car that will get 65mpg but it will not come to the US.

65mpg Ford link

[Jim_M 178]

You guys all have it made. I was overjoyed when I found diesel for $3.85 yesterday.

[Duff 206]

Enjoy the low fuel prices while they last, because when the economy turns around and people start buying/driving again they are likely to rise in response to renewed demand.

That was an excellent analysis, Steve thanks!

Specific to the part of your post I'm quoting, though, my real concern now, at least in the short term, is less the turnaround of the economy than the impending cut in OPEC production as it relates to gas prices, and by extension, everything else.

We've already shown the world we can, if we want to, cut our demand by driving less, but there's only so far we can cut back and still get to work or lead semi-normal lives.

Duff :USA:

[MaineDad 85]

paid $2.74 for reg unleaded yesterday in Bangor...

[Rod(NASNUT) 1]

$2.45 last night in Mifflintown PA. :banana:

[T-Mo-(Moderator) 4,345]

Specific to the part of your post I'm quoting, though, my real concern now, at least in the short term, is less the turnaround of the economy than the impending cut in OPEC production as it relates to gas prices, and by extension, everything else.

Duff

Speaking of OPEC, I heard that they want to call an emergency meeting to address the falling gas prices (or more appropriately the lower price of barrel of oil). It seems they may halt or lower production to get the prices back up.

[saguaro 0]

[Mith 2]

$7.60/USgal here. $8.70 for diesel. Yes guys, life does go on

At the moment I'm filling my personal car once every 4-6 weeks, and it costs $50-70 to fill.

Running the tractors is expensive, the hydro costs about $15 an hour in petrol, the Ferguson about $20-30. Oils are expensive though, it'd cost about $200 to change the hydrualic oil in the hydro, about $100 to change the trans fluid in the Ferguson (which needs doing badly).

Not complaining though, its way cheaper than it was in the summer.