Kohler 20 Magnum or Onan 20 , Whats the best engine?

[tom2p 2,393]

thank you !

 

[WildHorses 378]

On 5/29/2020 at 10:06 AM, onanparts.com said:

 

If this were true, why were there millions of Onan powered Miller, Lincoln and Hobart portable welders made and designed to run at 3600-3700 RPM at full load every day, all day? Many are still on the job even though they were made back in the 80's and 90's. These welders had two operating speeds, idle and full speed. Then there are the millions of Onan powered tractors still on the job. Onan engines are and were designed, engineered and manufactured for commercial/industrial applications. Overbuilt. High speed, low speed, any speed. Peak torque right around 2200-2400 RPM.

 

Take this overbuilt design and reduce it's operating RPM by 50% and you now have a nearly bullet proof 1800 RPM quiet and dependable generator. A win win situation. Onan engines were originally designed for generators, back in the 1930's! The track record of "High RPM" Onan engines in tractors and welders and many many other applications is proof those so called Cummins engineers back then were full of BS! 

 

 

The engineers had working knowledge of product issues and planned improvements that later came to be. I'm sure they didn't know what they were talking about (SMH LOL). I'll give you that this was their personal opinion and not something that Cummins was putting out publicly. I know it's rare to see an Onan with intact valve seats over 1200 hours on a Wheel Horse. The proof is in the pudding so they say, these engines were discontinued and Cummins sold off the Onan engine business pretty quickly for them. They were also making more money on the power generation side of things so who can blame them. 

[WVHillbilly520H 10,369]

On 5/28/2020 at 8:56 PM, tom2p said:

a lot of grass 

 

this is Onan grass (or zero turn)

 

WVhillbilly and others cut more 

 

 

Yes sir here it is... Just a lil' bit more. 

[onanparts.com 178]

13 hours ago, WildHorses said:

 

 

I know it's rare to see an Onan with intact valve seats over 1200 hours on a Wheel Horse. The proof is in the pudding so they say, these engines were discontinued and Cummins sold off the Onan engine business pretty quickly for them. They were also making more money on the power generation side of things so who can blame them. 

 

There was a production run where the seats were not correctly "peened" or "locked" in place. Add clogged cooling fins, high heat, and they can come loose. Known issue, but rare overall in the millions of engines manufactured.

 

I was not aware Cummins had sold off Onan? If that's true, can you please tell Cummins to stop making and selling Onan replacement parts? Due to emissions issues they stopped making the Onan flat twins in 2004. Cummins did not sell off anything Onan engine related. Based on the Genuine Onan/Cummins parts pictured, maybe Cummins did not get the same info as you? Note the date codes, March and May 2020. Cummins/Onan are still very much in the Onan engine business!

 

 

[lynnmor 6,777]

Since the 20HP engines went to Linamar, that is probably the reason folks think that the business was sold off.  I wonder if the internal parts for those engines are manufactured in Canada, brought back to the USA or outsourced elsewhere.  I see that the electrical parts have JP and US on the boxes, and that hasn't changed/

[onanparts.com 178]

1 minute ago, lynnmor said:

Since the 20HP engines went to Linamar, that is probably the reason folks think that the business was sold off.  I wonder if the internal parts for those engines are manufactured in Canada, brought back to the USA or outsourced elsewhere.  I see that the electrical parts have JP and US on the boxes, and that hasn't changed/

Emissions rules pushed the production to Canada. Cummins/Onan supplied all the parts, tooling etc. Some parts were made in Canada, the majority made in the USA. Linamar was "contracted" to assemble the engines. Then Canada's emissions rules caught up and in 2004 all production of assembled flat head twin engines ceased. Ignition coils and most carbs have been made in Japan for many decades. Very good quality. Everything else is still made here in the US with only a few exceptions.

[WildHorses 378]

15 hours ago, onanparts.com said:

 

There was a production run where the seats were not correctly "peened" or "locked" in place. Add clogged cooling fins, high heat, and they can come loose. Known issue, but rare overall in the millions of engines manufactured.

 

I was not aware Cummins had sold off Onan? If that's true, can you please tell Cummins to stop making and selling Onan replacement parts? Due to emissions issues they stopped making the Onan flat twins in 2004. Cummins did not sell off anything Onan engine related. Based on the Genuine Onan/Cummins parts pictured, maybe Cummins did not get the same info as you? Note the date codes, March and May 2020. Cummins/Onan are still very much in the Onan engine business!

 

 

 

 

 

Cummins sold off the Onan "engine" business to pursue only the Onan power generation business.  Linmar bought the Onan engine business from Cummins. I'm not sure what has happened to it since then. 

[bottjernat1 2,189]

Either way they are both good engines! Just one is more pricey then the other. But not by much. I like both. 

[onanparts.com 178]

5 hours ago, WildHorses said:

 

 

Cummins sold off the Onan "engine" business to pursue only the Onan power generation business.  Linmar bought the Onan engine business from Cummins. I'm not sure what has happened to it since then. 

 

Can you explain why "Cummins" and "Onan" are both on the box? This "Onan engine" part was made about 90 days ago....March 2nd 2020.

 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2020 by onanparts.com

[onanparts.com 178]

If a regulator is not an "engine part", then here we have a con rod for an Onan P216G. These rods are inside any Onan powered 416-8 and 416-H. This con rod left the Cummins/Onan factory last August, 2019. Cummins owns 100% of Onan. This has been true since 1992. If one company sells another company, they don't keep putting "both" their names on the products they sell.

 

 

 

 

[Mudrig150 298]

We own both a Kohler Magnum and an onan P series. The Magnum has had very little issues after getting the carb issues sorted out, I bought a coil for it, and a new carb, and after cleaning it out it runs fine other then an issue with it shutting down without a load. The P series has 2500 hours on it and runs fine for that much, albeit having the opposite problem of the Magnum. Magnums are great for engine swaps because you can easily put a remote oil filter on them, while onans are very torquey.

The normal issues for a Kohler Magnum are carb issues (most of them have walbro carbs which are not exactly good), the plastic fuel pumps get holes in the diaphragm, the coils go bad, and a few other things.

The issues that you see a lot for the P series are leaking intakes, broken starter mounts, bad coil and timing parts, and the valve seats fall out if you overheat it.

Both engines are great with maintenance, if you want cheaper parts, get a magnum, if you want torque, get an onan.

[Goofey 89]

So Onan is better at mowing grass? In fact big lots of grass is Onan grass? Why? because the guys with big lawns have spoken out saying they use 520's? I'm sorry but an equally sized Kohler or any other brand engine for that matter, will also cut same grass just fine. And I'm betting just as fine. My 19hp kohler does a fantastic job on a sixty deck. I understand there is a lot of Onan guys and fandom here. But seriously saying stuff like that is just flat out wrong IMO. I dont hate Onans at all. I like them. But that stuff is just wrong info.

 

And then the Onan salesman stating that the spec sheets are not from Onans marketing department but just pure facts. Come on! Really? 

 

And to answer the OP. If I had to take one of them then I would take the Onan. I think is has just a tiny bit less chance of breaking down. And when it does break down anyway I would replace with something newer instead of piling money in it on overly expensive repairs.

 

Now let the disciplinary action against me begin.

Edited June 2, 2020 by Goofey

[Goofey 89]

On 6/1/2020 at 8:30 PM, onanparts.com said:

There was a production run where the seats were not correctly "peened" or "locked" in place. Add clogged cooling fins, high heat, and they can come loose. Known issue, but rare overall in the millions of engines manufactured

 

They must all have ended up in various brands of garden tractors then, as there seems to be more than just a lonely one or two examples of it around.  And a few other problems too. And the fact that it is a known issue. In fact very well known. Just dont make it all good now does it. Sorry the wheels fell off your truck sir but really it's a known issue so all good yeah? 

[tom2p 2,393]

the valve seat problem is a known issue with the Onan

 

but the issue was / is apparently not enough of an issue (not considered a significant design flaw or service length reduction) or Wheel Horse would have been forced to warranty the tractors and / or would have switched to a different engine supplier

 

as John Deere was forced to do when they warrantied tractors with the early first gen Kohler KT twins (Series 1?) and replaced the Kohler with an Onan 18 (P218G)

 

 

Edited June 3, 2020 by tom2p

[WildHorses 378]

11 hours ago, onanparts.com said:

 

Can you explain why "Cummins" and "Onan" are both on the box? This "Onan engine" part was made about 90 days ago....March 2nd 2020.

 

 

 

 

 

Cummins retained the name "Onan" and sold the rights to the Onan "engine business" to Linamar (I keep saying this I'm not sure why you can't seem to understand that part), who continued to produce the Onan design in Canada under the LX model designation with the Linamar name on them. (I have a 518 Wheel Horse with a replacement Linamar branded engine that is a direct and exact replacement for a P218 Onan.) Cummins retained the right to produce and sell parts for the generators which had the same engine design they sold to Linamar. I can't find anything online stating the terms of the sale but that's why you no longer find Onan engines in new power equipment that isn't a generator.  As others have stated I think the design had run through it's life cycle some years ago and Linamar has moved on from production of those engine designs.  Yes Cummins still owns "Onan" but no they no longer make small engines under the Onan name. I can't find the terms of the sale but I would guess that if Cummins wanted to make small engines again all they have to do is label them Cummins and not Onan and they could start tomorrow. 

[WildHorses 378]

https://simpletractors.com/forums/topic/1066-something-new-with-onan-engines/?fbclid=IwAR2X_91xyn2EJVQnFA3JNNet6DAztEn7OVzrGzLbgMZ95XeWLtTQklqCrJ0

 

Here's a forum where there are Onan dealers referencing this if you still don't believe me. 

[onanparts.com 178]

11 hours ago, WildHorses said:

https://simpletractors.com/forums/topic/1066-something-new-with-onan-engines/?fbclid=IwAR2X_91xyn2EJVQnFA3JNNet6DAztEn7OVzrGzLbgMZ95XeWLtTQklqCrJ0

 

Here's a forum where there are Onan dealers referencing this if you still don't believe me. 

 

 

First post from an Onan dealer in your link contains the following statement:

 

There have been numerous changes in the way Onan does business since Cummins Engine Co. bought them about 11 years ago and it could be that Cummins has licensed this Canadian company to build the engines for them.

 

The dealers speculation 20 years ago that Linamar was "licensed" is correct. No sale info can be found by you as there was no sale. Cummins "licensed" Linamar to assemble the Performer line in Canada. US EPA emissions rules pushed manufacture up to Canada, where Linamar, under license produced the engines until Canadian emissions rules caught up to the US levels.

 

Time to put this one to bed.

 

 

[WildHorses 378]

14 hours ago, onanparts.com said:

 

 

First post from an Onan dealer in your link contains the following statement:

 

There have been numerous changes in the way Onan does business since Cummins Engine Co. bought them about 11 years ago and it could be that Cummins has licensed this Canadian company to build the engines for them.

 

The dealers speculation 20 years ago that Linamar was "licensed" is correct. No sale info can be found by you as there was no sale. Cummins "licensed" Linamar to assemble the Performer line in Canada. US EPA emissions rules pushed manufacture up to Canada, where Linamar, under license produced the engines until Canadian emissions rules caught up to the US levels.

 

Time to put this one to bed.

 

 

 

 

Licensed/sold... either way Cummins got money from Linamar and they are out of the small engine business now. They're only making Onan generators and not engines for random applications. 

[lynnmor 6,777]

6 hours ago, WildHorses said:

 

 

Licensed/sold... either way Cummins got money from Linamar and they are out of the small engine business now. They're only making Onan generators and not engines for random applications. 

 

Compare two generators: First one.

 

Do you think that Onan makes this: thing?

[AHS 1,411]

All I have ever had is Kohler singles... simple, simple!! And 1 520 with a onan.. that was expensive to work on, but torquey but hot motor temps during the summer. I had it for less than a year. I’m kind of impartial, (since I have had Kohler singles) but I would say the Kohlers...if you keep the oil changed! What about you @ebinmaine, I know you have had a kohler twin?

[ebinmaine 63,133]

2 minutes ago, AHS said:

kohler twin

I do... Still waiting to be installed and put to the test though.

 

Runs nice on the floor!!

[WildmanC120 613]

I used to hate the p216 in my 416.  But after finally getting the bugs out and having it running rather well, I kinda like it. It starts easy, runs very smooth, linear power and the sound is amazing.  I do not have a twin Kohler in a wheel horse yet to compare it to though. 

 

I think some of the issue and bickering in this thread might not exist if we were putting 2 equally maintained engines against each other. For example, I used to give my Onan a bad rap.  I then came to terms that I bought the tractor used after sitting in a field for 5 years and the engine has 520 hours on it and probably never any maintenance. 

 

I think of we were each fortunate enough to have  a new version of each engine, maintain it properly from new that we would find there isn't much difference between the 2.  It's hard to compare used crap when you weren't the one using it since new. 

Edited June 5, 2020 by WildmanC120