Course about an Onan powered 416-8

[papaglide 542]

Allright. I have read many an opinion regarding the Onan powered 416-8. I own one. It is a nice tractor. My Onan smokes slightly which doesn't bother me. What I am asking for in this thread is an education regarding this tractor. Why does it seem to be so highly regarded? It seems ordinary, as far as garden tractors go, to me. It doesn't do anything that my B-80 or IHCC 1200 doesn't do. I can't seem to " feel" the torque and the power that I read in other posts regarding Onan powered 416's. I am not wanting to pick a fight, I am wanting to be educated. I want learn to appreciate this tractor. Please help me out in realizing that my 416 isn't just a nice WH, but a tractor worthy of high esteem. By the way, please don't flame me because of I compared it to a cub! This may seem like a strange post, but I am serious. Thanks.

[Hodge71 665]

Mike,

 

Im going to be following this closely too. I honestly feel the same about my 416. Its a hydro not an 8speed but I honestly dont see the sound and power of the Onan. I honestly am not really impressed with either. Not looking to cause a scuffle either but honestly if somebody had a 416 with a Kohler I'd pay them to take the Onan away. Maybe its because of the 8 speed it is so special to people. Cany wait to see what happens once people chime in....

[papaglide 542]

Mike,

 

Not looking to cause a scuffle either but honestly if somebody had a 416 with a Kohler I'd pay them to take the Onan away..

Jeff, me too!

[Tankman 3,523]

Interesting thread.

I have a '85 416-8 with the Kohler engine. A power house, engineered Stallion!

Also in my stable is a '90 520-8 2-cyl Onan. Another great "Race" Horse!

Love 'em both! Today they got the spray SeaFoam treatment in the carb's. Both engines are purring. My 1st use of SeaFoam (spray in the carbs), won't be my last!

Couldn't comment on the hydros or the 16hp Onan but the 20hp Onan roars into action. Never misses a step. Have owned many Kohlers, never any biggie problems but, I find myself likin' this Onan.

I mowed an acre of grass, not awfully high, takin' a couple of inches off last Sunday. 520-8 in 3rd gear, speeding thru the grass. Wow!

PS. Nice mow job papaglide!

[baerpath 517]

I have had both onan and kohler powered 416's   Kohler all the way  But then I'm no fan of Onans to start with.  

[Foozerush 40]

I have a 95 416-8. Onan powered. Love it. I haven't mowed grass that's as tall as the hood with it, but I wouldn't be afraid to. I pushed a ton of snow with it, and it lost traction with chains before the engine even sorta show any strain.... It's my first 2 cyl tractor. I don't have a stable of horses to compare to, the only other 3 tractors I own are a WH 8-25 and a simplicity 3110, both rear engine small guys, and a POS MTD I inherited with a rental property. It's a 14hp oil leaking, can't make a right hand turn, beat up cheap tractor. ( I'm waiting for it to die or major break on the steering mech, then replace it with a WH). I feel they have more power than single cyl engines, ( don't hate me Peeps). Just my own opinion, if I ever worked a 16 kohler to compare myself, this post might be different. Plus the array of attachments is great, from mower to FEL, to belly plows, snow plows, blowers, tillers, generators...... Very versatile..... With the power to handle them all. Gregg

[WH nut 553]

Its a personal opinion thing, some like Fords and some Chevys.

[Save Old Iron 1,571]

These are all great OPINIONS, but I think he was looking for something more substantial than "I like the way they sound" or "it's soooo much fun to drive." Then the "welcome to the club" pitch you sometimes get - Right - Thanks. I think.

 

On the plus side for ownership, I have not yet heard one convincing reason I would want an ONAN 16 HP engine on my tractor versus a Kohler 16HP, but since I do own several non WH Kolher twins, I do know from experience twins are smoother - much smoother than a single lung engine could hope to be.

 

On the negative side, those who have had to repair Onans can rightly state the cost of doing any substantial repair work to the engine tends to get cost prohibitive VERY quickly. The gasket kit alone can cost more than an entire rebuild kit for a Kohler. I have 2 416-8's (one K and one M) , a C160 and a 520H which I bought 3 years ago. Guess which one is last on my rebuild list. Hint - it has an Onan engine in it. Why bother with the 520H at all then?  I do want the convenience of a hydro for winter work. I'm sorry, but the grass in the intake screen is just way too much a PITA for me to ever consider using the engine for lawn care.

 

Used for cutting "normal" lawns which don't get ignored and get trimmed more than just once a month, the B-80 would provide the same results as the MIGHTY ONAN with about 1/2 the fuel usage - maybe even less.

 

In many respects, ONAN the EMPEROR has no clothes.

 

It's just not a good look for me.

 

[Tankman 3,523]

Your son is sooooooo cute, ready to go-go-go! How old is he?

'Lectric shock make his hair fall out?

Not lookin' forward to an Onan rebuild. At that time, Kohler'll be my choice.

And you bet, the Onan is a (gas) hog for sure!

 

 

[Ken B 3,189]

I do Agree with SOI. Enjoy a good running ONAN while it lasts. I'll never be convinced they are a good engine myself with all the "issues" that they have. My 520 is still runnin fine but when the Onan pukes beyond a reasonable repair bill for parts I'm gonna deep six it without a moments thought. My 520 will probably become a 516K when that time comes.

I had a 416-8 with a Kohler on it. It did everything the 520 can do though not as smooth and sweet sounding. I think more than anything I like cutting grass with a hydro versus an 8 speed. I know this isn't about 520's here but ya just can't beat a good running one when you have lots of grass too cut.

[546cowboy 302]

I have owned a 516H and 4- 520H's ( two with 60" decks and two with 48" ) and a 520-8 for a short time. I am an Onan fan because when you mow the 4 acres I have here, it does not slow down until the grass is at least a foot tall and then just because of the quality of cut and I have to slow down. I think if you had a 520 with a 60" deck you would see the difference more.  I mowed with the 516 for several years and it did a fine job. To me there isn't another engine that sounds quite like it or has the power. I never had much of a problem with that grass build-up that some complain about.

 

I do confess though for those K-341's too. Another thing is repairing the Onans. The valve seat problem is not all that big a deal and not that costly. I bought three of them with that problem that were priced right. For less than $200 they were  ready for years of use. I rebuilt a K-341 that I now have about $500 in and has become a nightmare. By comparison I have had 4 KT-17's that all have broken rods and I wouldn't even attempted to rebuild.

 

I realize I got a little off topic here but Onans are no worse than some other engines. Just a tad more picky about an owner doing the common sense  maintenance.

Edited June 14, 2013 by 546cowboy

[leeave96 490]

Onan's are GREAT!!!!!!!  However we need to put them in context.  They are not an old cast iron single cylinder Kohler engine that are easily rebuilt.  My Brethren with the Simplicity garden tractors that use the Kohler Command engines typically DON'T rebuild these engines - they repower.  I think that is how one should look at the Onans - or at least that's what I'm doing with mine.  Run them, do some misc repair, but when it's time to throw the high $$$'s into the engine, repower - just like you'd do if it were a Kohler Command or even a K17 twin.

 

I've got a Simplicity Sovereign garden tractor with a Kohler Command, it has about 600 hrs.  There is a fair possibility the engine is toast - haven't got to fixing it yet, but it will be a repower vs a rebuild.  I've got a Simplicity Landlord DLX with a Briggs Vanguard 18 hp engine.  That engine is toast.  Only 400ish hrs on the tractor.  No doubt, it will get a repower - not a rebuild.

 

For me, the bottom line on the engines is this:  If it is a Kohler cast iron single cylinder engine, it warrants a rebuild.  If it is an aluminum block engine - run it hard, enjoy the ride and when it gives-up the ghost, repower.

 

If I'm looking for a 416, sure I'd like to find a Kohler M16 under the hood, but I wouldn't hesitate to grab an Onan powered 416 either - IF it runs good and outwardly has no apparent issues.  I see no reason that a good running Onan won't keep going for a long time - especially with a little care to keep the grass and heat build-up out of the engine. 

[can whlvr 994]

if i could choose between an onan or kohler powered wheelhorse,KOHLER all the way,i have 2 414,s both 8 speeds and they are nice working tractors,i mean great workers,and close to the 16 hp,i also have a c160 with the 13 fin 16 hp k series,its got all the power i need in a garden tractor

[Hydro 131]

I had a 416H...Onan in excellent condition.  It died a typical Onan death, valve seat failure at 450 hours.  Now I have a 314 modified with 16 Kohler single among other mods.  I call it a 516C.  I cut the same 1 1/2 acres as I did with the Onan using a 48" deck.  The Kohler uses more fuel, is noisier and not nearly as smooth.  It does not sound nearly as good as the Onan to my ears but....it's still running and I have more confidence in it.  I believe it's a stronger more reliable engine and would not trade it for another Onan. 

To me there is nothing like the sound of an Onan idling after a cold start and or standing back about 100feet and listening to an Onan at work.

Edited June 15, 2013 by Hydro

[decksetter 50]

I love my onans. I'm up to 3 myself (since I got a broken one last week) and my brother and dad each have one. I grew up on a 416h.

Any of you wanting to get rid of your onans, bring them over and drop them at my house!

I will say though, parts are ridiculous. The 16 horse I have apart has a bent valve. One new exhaust valve costs around $45. I believe I'll be pulling one out of the non running engine on the tractor I got this week.

I would like to have a Kohler tractor around because I feel like the 416-8 and 520h are overkill for a lot of things. The 416 is a much more nimble feeling tractor. I don't see the need for the 20 horse onan unless you're mowing with a 60" deck, and I'm not even convinced the 16 would struggle.

I have personally seen a 20 horse onan with the valves out of whack and sticking open enough that you couldn't get any compression reading on the rear cylinder have no trouble mowing 8"+ tall grass going full speed ahead. After he mowed he realized he had so much blowby that he was pouring oil out around the pto bearing plate and around the dipstick tube.

I've also pulled an Oliver 77 around the barn lot with a 416h. At idle. The Oliver is probably around 4500 lbs.

I graded my driveway out yesterday with my homemade grader. It consists of an old 22.5 semi tire with 15 bolts sticking out the sidewall to drag across gravel and break it up. I loaded 3 4"cinder blocks inside the tire, set an old donut spare in the tire to fill the hole, and set a 60 lb bucket of drywall mud and 2 more 4"blocks on top. Pulled it around the driveway (including some uphill) along with my 275 lb frame with the 416-8. At idle. In 3rd gear high range.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 4 Beta

[papaglide 542]

What I am wondering , would not a Kohler be able to do the same thing? This is where I am somewhat confused. My 416 doesn't do anything different that my IHCC 1200 (12 horse kohler) can't do or my 14 horse kohler thats in my gt-14. Bottom line, why is the Onan held in such high esteem? Kohlers seem much, much more forgiving without all of the "babying" that an Onan seems to need. I am not convinced in the superiority of the torque and "power" of the Onans. They seem to be a good engine that is equipped with a time bomb. When the bomb goes off, KABOOM!!! Repower or expensive rebuild.

When does a Kohler ever need to have a "repower"? "My kohler crapped out, I think its time to put a honda in." I don't think that this ever occurs. How many times does this happen with an Onan?

Thank you all for your input. To me there seems to be an "aura" regarding the Onan. It sounds different for sure, but it really isn't different. The sound seems to equate to more torque and power. I am not convinced of this. I am thinking differently about my 416-8 now than ever before. Anyone looking to buy or trade for a 1996 416-8?

[wheeledhorseman 579]

Mike, you began by asking a question that, in a way, there's no simple and straight answer to. WH nut said "Its a personal opinion thing, some like Fords and some Chevys" and I think there's more than an element of truth in this. The fact that the Kohler is a single and the Onan a twin will inevitably make fair comparisons difficult as there will always be 'differences' in performance that may or may not score highly in the mind of any particular owner.

 

In the relatively short time that I've owned and worked WHs I can say that a Kohler will continue running long after it's in need of some serious attention and rebuild work doing on it, probably not true of an Onan but the Onan on my 316-8 has almost 1800 hours on it, runs like new since doing the inlet manifold seal, and sounds 'sweet' as it purrs like a sewing machine through even the longest grass. It's not just me - my son has commented several times on how he loves that engine.

 

Strangely perhaps I have the budget Onan without an oil filter but that doesn't appear to have affected the life expectancy.

 

Andy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rick 254]

      I have a 416H I bought for $950. It came with a 48" push blade, a slightly used  50" mid mount grader blade, an extra rear mount, WH plastic rear wheel weights, a set of chains and a 48" mower deck. Considering the prices asked for the "accessories" I feel good about the deal. I think the tractor had @ 700 hours on it, and no problems yet. 

      The "wow' factor is no longer there, though. All I do with it is cut grass, and wipe grass off the screen. For some reason I have never been to find, I can't get the front of the deck low enough (below level) without the adjustment linkage binding up.

    Why in the world did WH put 6" wheels on the front of this model?

     I would consider trading the tractor for a very good condition later model 42 " mower deck for my 314-8.

[papaglide 542]

I have read so much regarding Onans that when I saw this tractor up for sale I was very excited to get it. I guess I was just expecting to be "wowed" by it in some way. The engine DOES sound GREAT but I never really experienced the "wow". I don't mean to bash the Onan and I apologize for maybe sounding like I am.  Maybe I was expecting black and white and the issue is that the engine is grey! I really do appreciate EVERYONE's insight in trying to answer a question that I come to realize doesn't have an answer. I agree with WH nut : "Its a personal opinion thing, some like Fords and some Chevys" Thanks again.

[Lymedog 2]

Hey Papa,

I own a 416-8 with an Onan, the one you see in my picture. I will say that I was not impressed by the motor originally but after I adjusted the carb to the manufactures specs it ran great. It's smooth as silk and cuts grass with ease. I do agree with everyone else that grass does get sucked up into the intake, but with a little effort it cleans out easy.

My dad owned a 446 case for years, with the same onan engine. He ran the crap out of that tractor, through all kinds of grass and weeds without any hesitation. The tractor self destructed but the onan ran strong. I guess what I'm saying is that the onan is a strong and reliable engine with the proper care.

Don't get me wrong though, I'd take a 16 hp kohler magnum in a heartbeat, due to the fact that I own three tractors with them, 14,12 and 10 hp respectively. I'd also say if the onan fails, I'd replace it with a kohler 16. The magnum 10 has been my dads for over 20 yrs. The tractor is in need of a serious paint job and it sits out in the elements, but no matter what the weather or temperature is, that magnum 10 always starts up with one turn of the key. A true testiment of the constitution of a Kohler Magnum.

I can't disagree with what was said earlier, it's a true preference issue.... Chevys or Fords.... Anyway , give the onan a fair chance anyway.

[wh5208speed 646]

What I am wondering , would not a Kohler be able to do the same thing? This is where I am somewhat confused. My 416 doesn't do anything different that my IHCC 1200 (12 horse kohler) can't do or my 14 horse kohler thats in my gt-14. Bottom line, why is the Onan held in such high esteem? Kohlers seem much, much more forgiving without all of the "babying" that an Onan seems to need. I am not convinced in the superiority of the torque and "power" of the Onans. They seem to be a good engine that is equipped with a time bomb. When the bomb goes off, KABOOM!!! Repower or expensive rebuild.

When does a Kohler ever need to have a "repower"? "My kohler crapped out, I think its time to put a honda in." I don't think that this ever occurs. How many times does this happen with an Onan?

Thank you all for your input. To me there seems to be an "aura" regarding the Onan. It sounds different for sure, but it really isn't different. The sound seems to equate to more torque and power. I am not convinced of this. I am thinking differently about my 416-8 now than ever before. Anyone looking to buy or trade for a 1996 416-8?

I have owned many of Kohler and Onan powered Wheel Horses. I personally think they are both great motors and the both have their pros and cons. I am confident that the twin Onan has more torque than the single Kohler however....most wheel horses handle the application (mowing, tilling, pushing snow, etc) where the hp or torque is not noticeable. I would think the only places you would even notice the hp/torque difference is in heavy snow with a 2 stage snowblower, or running a larger deck with thick grass....and going fast. I could also make an argument that a 310-8 or a 312-8 will do anything the larger hp models do....except on the think grass and snowblowing....just not as fast. Another small example is of the torque advantage is in stock class tractor pulling a lot of clubs use to allow any 16hp in the class (singles and twins). The Cub boys kept getting beat by a 416 (onan) which was held 1st place for two years...they decided to split the class because of the torque advantage.

 

Here is my pro/con list:

Onan Pro - full pressure lubrication....allowing you to mow hills and ditches with a better lubrication system....this is the best advantage for Onan in my opinion.

                - torque - a little better, but not a whole lot

                - smooth - very well balanced and low vibration

        Con  - Valve seat issue - Onan's biggest con

                - Not very rebuildable

                - Expensive parts

                - Fuel consumption

                - smaller dealer network for parts & service

 

Kohler Pro- Rebuildable

                 - Easy to work on

                 - lots of OEM and aftermarket parts and dealer network

                 -

        Cons - splash lubrication - Kohler's biggest con

                  - not as smooth (more vibration)

                 

                

Both are great motors with their own pros and cons......I prefer to have both

2 Onans (520-8 and 520-H)

4 Kohlers (C161-8, C161-8, 314-8, and C-165-8) and I have 2 K-341's sitting on the shelf just in case the right chassis rolls into the garage.

[papaglide 542]

Well, I never did get rid of the tractor. Engine aside, it is a very comfortable tractor to drive. As of right now it is getting repowered with a new Onan B 48, 20 hp motor. Does this make it a 420-8? The price was right and I am willing to start fresh with a new Onan. When she gets back to me I will take pics and write a report.

Edited September 25, 2013 by papaglide

[boovuc 1,090]

The B48G Onan, IMHO......is a better engine than the P series Onans. Same "cons" with them in regard to parts prices but I would guess that if you took a B48 Onan and mounted it the same as WH did on the 400 and 500 series tractors, over time it too would see valve seat issues due to over heating of the rear cylinder.

 

I won't get sucked into the discussion because as stated, it is a preference that you just can't set as black and white. I will say that ND on your hat makes me a little nauseous.   

 

We Are Still Penn State Proud Here!

 

Interested in how that repower works out for you! Let us know! (Oh how I don't like Couch Kelley)!!!!

[wh79d160 52]

Got alot or garden tractors ,mostly WH, both k's &o's. Arguably the best, most popular GT's ever made were onan powered. Maybe it was the power steering.

[zieg72 209]

I have been into the Real Wheel Horse scene since the purchase of a 520H in 2007 which I stumbled across this fine forum for help.  I am not a collector per say but have had a few over the years.  Onan's get a bad rap but that is ok cause when folks want to dump them they go very reasonably.  The P216 in your 416-8 will last as good as any Kohler will.  I bet if you could do a route cause analysis on why it failed it would be due to lack of cleaning or overheating because of prolonged use.  That being said there are also some things that have been discussed to address a cooler engine.  Cutting fins in the right side cover, and putting a remote oil filter setup.  For the notion of fuel consumption I have found that a 50/50 blend of Premium/regular works best.  The engine sounds better and does not work as hard cutting indicated by the vacuum gauge.  Lets face it these air cooled engines are hard on conventional oils.  I used synthetic in my Onan's after running conventional 5 or so hours to clean out the engine from whatever the previous owner did or did not do.  I have only 1.5 acres to take care of and 220 ft of driveway to plow.  I use my tiller and push dirt.  I share the duties between 2 of my 520H's.  I got the 416-8 as a toy, and want to experiment with it as well.  For me and my grass I went from a 60" deck to a 48" deck.  Cut the mowing time 20 minutes and saved a 1/2 gallon of fuel.  I did repower a 520H with a K341.  Even with the rubber mounts it had more of a vibration and wasn't as smooth.  I sold it before I had a chance to work it but I was impressed.   It was a neat package and would do it again if the occasion arose.  As was said by several, I've had Ford but I am a Chevy guy at heart.