Yet another axle seal - C175 Auto

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

I've done a bit of searching and read the other axle seal related posts... but wanted to ask a few questions regarding the seal and some hub questions.

 

I've owned this machine since '92 and it has been a solid worker.

 

The left rear axle seal has been 'weeping' slightly since I got it, but this year it's actually leaking to the point I want to change it.

 

I posted about this a bit in the '1533 Bearing Substitution' thread, being a pessimist, I always fear (and prepare for) the worst.  I know that when a seal leaks there is often a worn bearing as root cause.  Yesterday I spent some time examining things and there is very minimal up/down movement of the axle so it seems that the bearing is fine and just the seal is leaking.

 

I've never been able to get the left hub to stay tight.  I've neglected fixing this for too many years and now realize I should not have.  My bad.  The key slot in the axle is worn, as it is in the hub.  The key itself is a POS and needs replaced.  I'm quite sure that after all the years of wear that the hub is wallowed out.  I haven't mic'd the axle yet to see how worn the OD of that is.

 

My questions:

 

I know that the 11124 seal has been used as a replacement for the 6449.

 

The 1124 seal is the correct ID and OD, but the WIDTH of the seal is about 1/4" as opposed to almost 1/2" for the OEM.  Will the 1124 provide as good a seal and last as long as the OEM? I don't care to cut corners to save $5.00

 

Regarding the hub tightening problem:

 

How likely is it that simply replacing the woodruff key and set screw will allow the hub to be tightened and stay tight?  My plan is to try this first and see what happens.

 

What are the odds that a permanent fix will only come from replacing the hub and/or axle itself?

 

Would drilling and tapping a second set screw hole 90° around from the first be likely to avoid me having to replace the hub and/or axle?

 

Thanks guys!  I'm happy to have found this excellent forum!

[Wheelhorsedairyfarmer 13]

Well, I just changed 3 axle seals. 2 on a c-141, and the last (and worst) on a 310-8 (took me 3 days, a gear arm puller, a sawzall and 16 blades), and had keyway issues in the axle on my Charger 12 a few years ago. As far as the seals go, I bought Toro seals from the dealer. They were like 6 or 7 dollars, and all my tractors have 1 1/8 axles. I'm unsure what the part numbers are. My 310 originally had 1 inch axles, but ended up having the transmission taken to a machine shop and the dealer put in 1 1/8 axles back in the mid 90's. So it's 2013 and I just now replaced one of the seals. And there have been at LEAST 1,000 hours on those seals. Now to your key slot, I believe on my Charger 12 we had put a slightly larger key in it and that solved the problem with it, however, my dealer said that a leaky axle seal can loosen up the set screws and key and you can figure out from that I'm sure that when that gets loose, it wears the keyway and hub. Depending on how bad the key slot is worn, a new key, hub (or a good used hub), set screws and jam nuts. Now if your key slot is worn really bad, I believe a good machine shop could put in a new keyway in the axle, and if you end up going this route, have a square keyway put in, My 310 has those. Woodruff keys just plain stink. So, to sum it all up, I'd get the Toro seal (you either have 1 inch or 1 1/8 axles, on the 175 I would say probably 1 1/8 for sure.) You're going to have to tear the hub off, if the keyway in the hub isn't worn, you could re-use the hub, but I'd replace with a good used one or a new one (about 80 bucks for new). So replace the key, the hub, set screws and jam nuts and seal. Should get you back up and running. Good luck, hope this helps!

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

Thanks WHDF!

 

I just spent a couple hours evaluating...

 

Pulled the hub, the axle is a bit messed up from the hub 'wobbling' all these years... I have to admit, I don't know how long it has been loose, with so much other stuff to maintain, this slipped through the cracks.

 

Anyway, the axle at the seal end where is exits the transaxle and at the end is about 0.003 shy of what it is in the middle.  The key slot is tapered a bit... at the bottom of the slot it's just a bit under 0.25 but at the top it's about 0.260.

 

The hub is another matter though... the bore is egged out and wallowed pretty good.  On the transaxle side, it's coming in at about 1.140 to 1.148 and at the outside, about the same, maybe a tad bigger.  Toward the center of the bore it's not bad at about 1.130.  The key slot is really buggered.

 

I'm going to need a hub, new or good used.  There is no way that this will ever stay tight even with a new key and set screw.

 

Interestingly, the seal that is in the TA now IS an 11124, so it's obvious that this problem existed before I got the machine.

 

I don't understand why these hubs didn't have two set screws all along, one on the key and another 90 degrees around, on the axle.  This would prevent the hub from 'pivoting' on the single set screw.  I'm still wondering if this isn't the way to go with my existing hub    Maybe I should fire up the drill press and give it a try before dropping all my beer money on a new hub.

[Wheelhorsedairyfarmer 13]

I didn't know that they made hubs with only one set screw hole in them! All the ones on mine have 2......it might be worth a try, but if the key slot in the hub is already sloppy.....it's just gonna wear the axle key slot even more. Either way you slice it or dice it, hubs, seals, keys and axles are most always a pain in the drain. 

[Trouty56 567]

Jeffpicks.....place a wanted add in the classifieds for a hub with two set screws. Earlier hubs had only one. As far as the axle.....if you clean it up good you may be able to fill the wallow with a little JB weld. Maybe put saran wrap on a new key and use it to mold it....maybe ...... I've read about it a couple times. Don't forget the new seal first.....

 

Question for the forum.....the seal replacement Jeff is referring to is narrower (as he posted above). Should it be bottomed out in the axle housing or just flush. 2 seals have been mentioned before but I think Kelly said the outside seal would not be lubricated and would do nothing good anyway.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Trouty56

[stevasaurus 23,281]

I would say the seal should be flush with the end of the axle housing.

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

All the ones on mine have 2 [set screws]

 

Even the C 141 ?

 

If what Trouty said is true, that the earlier ones had only one setscrew, I would think the 141 would qualify as 'earlier'?  no?

 

My 175 is a 1980, Sundstrand, so is a very early one of that model.

 

I've ordered a new hub.  I will be drilling and tapping for a second set screw since there is some wear on the axle itself, this will give extra 'insurance' that it won't come loose again.  (MAYBE? the new hub will come pre-drilled for two? Could I be lucky?)

 

Bob, thanks for the tip on the JB Weld... but with all due respect, it sounds a little... uhhhh... well... like something I don't think I would go for.  I'm cheap, yeah, but the old girl deserves a bit better!

 

the seal replacement Jeff is referring to is narrower (as he posted above). Should it be bottomed out in the axle housing or just flush. 2 seals have been mentioned before but I think Kelly said the outside seal would not be lubricated and would do nothing good anyway.

 

I'm sure that the 11124 replacement seals that are in this machine were installed by a dealer (I know where the machine was bought and serviced) so at least prior to 1992, this dealer was installing them flush.  I don't know if this means it's 'right', but that's how these are installed.  I'll be using the OEM seals so that won't be a decision for me this time!

 

Thanks Guys!

[Wheelhorsedairyfarmer 13]

Now with all of the above being said, I have another thought on hubs......would it be bad to have another key slot machined into a hub? I love discussions like this where everyone shares experiences and information. Always learning something new on here

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

That thought had crossed my mind too... I've got a few basic machines here in the shop, but nothing that I can machine a key slot with so I would have to farm it out.  I bet the charge to do so would exceed the cost of the new hub.  There's certainly enough meat on there that it wouldn't weaken it any.  If I had a boring bar I'd fire up the torch and braze up the missing 'meat' on the inside of this hub and rebore it... but even my time to do so isn't worth $70 and I don't have a boring bar anyway! 

 

When I got this machine in '92, I bought new seals and never installed 'em.  I was out in the shop spring cleaning and I actually found the bag with them in it, along with a pair of axle needle bearings, axle c-clips, and some thrust washers (front spindles I think?)... I guess I was planning on doing this job for over 20 years!  So now I gotta call tomorrow and tell them I don't need the seals after all.

[stevasaurus 23,281]

The idea of the wood ruff key is to have a weak spot for something to break and not kill the horse.  If you put 2 key ways in, you are changing what the weak spot was designed for and you could do internal damage to the transmission.

[Trouty56 567]

I was thinking more the pre 70 models may have had single set screws. I have a 68 with singles..a 73 with doubles and a 75 with doubles. Dunno.....

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

I think I might have misunderstood DairyFarmer... I thought he meant a 'replacement' key slot in the hub for the one that's buggered.  Yeah, I can definitely understand why you wouldn't want two.

 

Bob T, what models are the machines with doubles?

 

The hub that is called out for this one is # 105763 (-03) . 

 

What is typically used as a seal driver?  Is there a PVC pipe size that works?  I guess the old hub would work just fine, eh?

[Don1977 605]

Now with all of the above being said, I have another thought on hubs......would it be bad to have another key slot machined into a hub? I love discussions like this where everyone shares experiences and information. Always learning something new on here

I tried a new key slot in the hub it didn't work still couldn't keep the hub tight.

Here is what did work. I have three friend that are machinist so all the work was just returning favors.

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

Thanks Don,  looks like a good fix, unfortunately I don't have any markers to call in with machinist friends... drat!

 

What's your take on drilling and tapping a second set screw hole 90° around from the keyway?

[Don1977 605]

I did second set screw about 15 years ago will only help on a good hub and axle. My hubs then were in better shape and I still have good key slots in the axles. Any time a hub slips the key need to be replaced as it wares both the hub and key. The set screws need to be replaced when a hub slips as it wares away the locking point.

[Trouty56 567]

Bob T, what models are the machines with doubles?

 

 

 

1973 14 8 speed and a 1975 C-160 Auto.

 

Shoot Jdog_Kustoms a PM...  He had an NOS one or two setting around.  I have two on a spare 8 speed tranny but I want to hang on to them for now.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Trouty56

[Wheelhorsedairyfarmer 13]

I meant a replacement keyway in the hub, only using one key, not a double keyed hub. That would make for disaster! 

[SousaKerry 503]

Loktite does make a shaft repair product for fixing worn keyways and shafts. Don't remember the number off hand but I have used it at work and it does work.

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

Thanks for that heads-up Kerry!

 

Looks like Loctite #660 is the product you are talking about.  I've  used the thread lockers for years and years and never knew they had all these other products.  Good info to know. 

 

It appears that the 660 would be advisable to use even if the keyway is not worn. 

 

I found this application note at their website with mucho good info ...

 

Well, for some reason I can't get a direct link to the PDF file, so a Google search for:

 

"Loctite® "Do it Right" User's Guide"

 

should bring up the page to download.

[IthacaJeff 151]

Same problem a couple of years ago. At first I thought I'd add a thin metal shim alongside

the Woodruff key that would snug up the key in the axle keyway and the hub keyway.

But it was suggested here that JB Weld would be a better choice. I used the JB but I'm

not convinced it was the best solution. Had I known about the Loctite solution, I would have

use it.  Check out this simple video:

 

 

I'm a cheap son-of-a-gun, so anything I can do to fix the problem using simple methods

I'm all in for trying. In fact, it is one of the reasons I like WHs so much. Both my tractors

have been hammered, wrenched, and jerry-rigged using whatever I have lying around.

 

I say Loctite it and give us a report.

 

Jeff

[stevasaurus 23,281]

One other thing to look for...the end of the set screw (new one) is cupped, if the cup is worn down and gone, it is one of the reasons it will not stay tight.

[AMC RULES 37,196]

Any updates Jeff, how'd it work out? 

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

Ya know... in my old age I must be delusional!  I thought I did post a follow-up!  Sorry 'bout dat!

 

Used the LT 660 on the worn keyway, new hub with two setscrews, new key, torqued the setscrews to 30 lb-ft and she's been good'n tight all summer! 

 

Honestly though, I don't think it's as much the 660 in the keyway as the fact that the new hub has two setscrews, but that keyway was REALLY worn.

 

This summer has been CRAZY for mowing, I don't think a weekend has gone by that I haven't NEEDED to mow, and I mean NEEDED.  So, I guess I've mowed the acre about a dozen times since repair and I call the repair a success.

 

We'll see how she does with the plow this winter... I'm thinkin' she's gonna get a workout.

 

Craig, you gonna sell me that Barracuda or not? 

Edited August 16, 2013 by Jeffpicks

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

I must have posted something in another thread also...

 

I replaced both seals with the OEM ones.

 

The old ones popped right out very easily with a screwdriver, installed the new ones using the old wallowed out hub as a slide hammer.  Went in smooth as silk and not a drop of oil leaking.

[AMC RULES 37,196]

In addition to the key slot, you stated the axle was enlarged as a result of the long term hub wobble...

do anything to clean it up before sliding on the new seal? 

Thinking the area around the key way might damage the new seal?