The rich get richer

[TT-(Moderator) 1,127]

Well, I just got off the phone with my home heating oil supplier.

I called to check our account balance, and to make sure we were on the budget payment plan for next heating season. (last seasons gallons used - multiplied by the current "locked" price per gallon - divided by 10 months of payments)

Long story short: currently locked at $2.699/gal -- next season $4.399/gal ! ! ! ! !

(we burn a 50/50 fuel oil/kerosene mix because of an external tank)

:wtf: are we gonna do to stay warm if we can't afford to pay for oil to heat our houses?

Kinda makes me wish I had a diaper put on my head instead of my behind when I was a baby. (NOT!)

[nylyon-(Admin) 7,120]

That's my concern as well TT heating oil! I don't have a budget plan, I usually fill up once in the summer and it lasts the year (1000 gal tank) Well, considering that I will need to get filled at close to $4.00 / gal...... :whistle:

[CasualObserver 3,406]

Let's all just hope for a cool summer and a warm winter. Did anyone else read in the news about the huge oil discovery off the coast of Brazil????

CNN

[nylyon-(Admin) 7,120]

You notice that oil prices don't go down when they find new oil, just up when they don't! :whistle:

[CasualObserver 3,406]

Yep... funny how that works, isn't it? The market price went down yesterday by nearly 2%, but the price at the pump didn't move. Now... let the market go back up 1/2% and we'll be up $0.25/gal immediately!! :whistle:

[kj4kicks 151]

Yep... funny how that works, isn't it? The market price went down yesterday by nearly 2%, but the price at the pump didn't move. Now... let the market go back up 1/2% and we'll be up $0.25/gal immediately!!

Gas prices here jumped 10 cents per gallon overnight yesterday... WTF??

[Curmudgeon 28]

Oh, you guys are really trying to get me going, aren't you? Especially the rich get richer part. My favorite rant.

My furnace is down to 60 degrees, will probably wind up below that this winter.

When I shower, the water is on full hot, but only comes out luck warm.

Turning down thermostats is about all I can do in an apartment to save on the gas bill, so the furnace and water heater are down. I'm hoping the people above me and beside me run their air conditioning enough this summer to keep me cool, cause mine is never being turned on, regardless. I just hope they don't have the same plan.

I simply can' afford it.

[TT-(Moderator) 1,127]

And to put things into perspective with the trucking industry, my best friend parked his own truck three weeks ago because of fuel prices. Yes, he has a 1986 KW K100 Aerodyne cabover with a 3406C Cat engine that might get 6mpg at best, but it was his source of income. If you do quick math, it was costing at least 90

[Sparky-(Admin) 19,535]

Its the same all over guys. I was locked in at $2.64.9 and the new lock in for next season is $4.42.9 for me .

Unfortunately if something has to give here at home to make ends meet its gonna be my WH hobby .

I'm allready done with roadtrips for tractors and tractor stuff as I'm sure lots of you are as well. The "Big Show" in Pa. will be my only tractor road trip with my truck and my gas this year I think.

Mike.........

[Curmudgeon 28]

I've had relatives (my brother, cousin, etc) in the trucking industry for years, and I don't know how they (truckers, independents in particular) keep going. What will happen is, as people go out of business, freight will stop moving. Eventually, after it's WAY to late for the masses, freight pay will go up, which of course will result in higher prices for everything for all of us, and those that somehow survived will once again make a mediocre living.

What gets me is, truckers make big bucks. Yeah right. Just look at any over the road company. You can make $50,000 every year.

Ok, let's do the math. Typically, when you leave home, you're gone 2, 3, 4 or more weeks at a time. In all essence, you're on the job, 24/7 all week. That's 168 hours a week on the job. (You're not home, so where are you? At work) Divide your $1000 pay for the week by your hours, and you get $5.95 an hour. Hells bells, that's almost minimum wage. Now remember, you get buy every meal out, you have to pay for a shower when you want one, you never see your family... Gee, I do wonder why OTR companies are ALWAYS hiring? Could it be no one would want such a job????

6 mile to the gallon isn't bad. I looked at one job, hauling milk. Milk is heavy, they get 4.5mpg on a good day. It used to be there were lots of little dairies around, pick up the milk, stop in town, drop off the milk. Now it's a two hour drive or more, each way, to a dairy. Next time the price of milk, and everything made from milk, goes up, remember how consolidation to the big cities is saving you so much money.

[T-Mo-(Moderator) 4,339]

My wife and I have this same conversation almost every time we pass a gas station and see the ever increasing overinflated price. I feel sorry for the truck drivers and the people earning minimum wage. How can they afford to go to work? :whistle:

[perry 82]

i dont even want to think how nuch its going to be to fill my propane tank this fall.

i sure am glad i have a wood burner in my house and shop.

[TT-(Moderator) 1,127]

But even the wood cutters / burners suffer, Perry. Until you buy the gas, mix oil, and bar oil, plus run a truck, tractor, or whatever to haul it in, you all are getting hammered by the increased oil prices too. And even those people who buy truck loads of "raw" wood are paying dearly now. The skidders, loaders, log trucks, and even the gas-powered splitters all cost more to operate now, so once again the burden falls on the consumer.

Even the price of Vaselline went up! :whistle:

[kpinnc 10,710]

Even the price of Vaselline went up!

Dang it!

Kevin

[linen beige 14]

Even the price of Vaselline went up!

Payin' out the * (asterisk) for that too!

I talked for a few minutes Sunday with a guy who had just moved back to the states from Europe. He told me he didn't miss owning a car at all while he was over there. Public transportation is everywhere over there. Looks like the folks that said it was a mistake to pull up miles and miles of rail back in the '70s and '80s were right.

[wh500special 2,053]

Did anyone else read in the news about the huge oil discovery off the coast of Brazil????

CNN

I hate to comment too much on things I don't fully understand, but here goes anyway...

Even though they found a new source of oil, it really isn't yet available for the world market until they actually start extracting it from the ground and ship it across the oceans. Not sure what the lead time is on such a venture, but certainly it will be measured in years, not months.

So, no movement in price should be expected.

Funny thing is that Brazil really will cash in on these reserves since they are already energy independent due to planning undertaken in the 70's (sugarcane ethanol is a major spoke in that wheel). Good for them for having the initiative to look further down the road than any of our leaders have recently (although they import a sizeable share of their food...guns or butter, guns or butter).

Thankfully, the US and Brazil are still on good relations despite the current administration's foreign policy fumbling...So brush up on your Portuguese and get behind those free trade agreements.

I know we all like to point our fingers at the middle east oil exporters (you choose which finger to use on your own), but the largest single source of foreign oil the US imports actually comes from Canada. So, when you think about it more critically, we are really at the mercy of EVERYBODY who is putting oil into the world market - not just those in the middle east that we all so lovingly denigrate and stereotype.

So, those getting richer aren't just the ones we see living in the deserts.

I am not looking forward to filling my propane tank this year either. My house is not well insulated and my wife and kids like to keep it warmer than I think we should. We burn though about 700 gallons of C3H8 eack winter. Last year the price was about $1.75 a gallon (liquid) and I haven't yet checked on this year's price. it will certainly be much higher though and I happen to be due for a fill very soon. At least the electric heat pump helps a little until it gets too cold.

Don't get me wrong, I am not at all happy with the price we are seeing at the pump or from the fuel delivery man; but we all knew (or should have known) these days were coming for a long time. Until recent years, the price of gas was STILL lower (in inflation adjusted dollars) than it was for almost the entire history of consuming gasoline as a fuel source (with some blips on the chart). Energy prices had been constantly decreasing for over 20 years.

Finally, we are stuck playing catch up for all the years we had of easy living. Truckers are just the first casualty of this. The rest of us might have to give up smoking or hobbies to keep living an otherwise unhindered lifestyle...or we will have to do what the rest of the world does and stop driving big vehicles (yes, I know it can be more complicated than that, but it's a start).

When gas crested $2 a gallon we complained, by who amoung us gave up driving an SUV, truck, or van? Not many.

When gas hit $3 a gallon we raised our eyebrows and we downsized from Suburbans and Expeditions to Trailblazers and Explorers.

Now we're at $4 a gallon and we are certainly headed for $5. Ford is closing plants that make trucks and is bleeding cash like a harpooned whale, but Focus sales have exploded. Perhaps $4 was finally the price where demand will start to normalize and we all will adapt our behavior.

A close friend of mine - and a former WH nut - was advocating a tax for $5/gallon gas 10 years ago. His plan - which looks like a stroke of genius in retrospect - would have invested the revenue from said tax into roads, public transit, alternative fuels, etc. It would have also incentivized private interests to come up with something to sell (cellulosic ethanol, biodiesel, fuel cells, etc) at a profit that consumers actually would have demanded. We would have been somewhere by now.

instead, gas stayed cheap and detroit (and the imports) continued to satisfy our demands for big, heavy, powerful vehicles. Now the popular media and activists like to blame the Big 3 for their poor decisions to get drawn into a "big vehicle" market and their resulting suffering, but they followed the demand e-x-a-c-t-l-y and built us the inefficient behemoths we wanted to buy. Now, they're stuck with an inventory that can't be sold without a pile of cash on the hood (rebates) or gimmicks ($2.99 gas guarantee).

Big kudos to Toyota and Honda for dumping money into hybrids before there was a market for the product - the first Prius and Insights were treated as novelties or science fair experiements, but now they are the darling of commuters. Resale values of diesel VW's have actually increased to where many are worth more used than they were new (PAssat wagon TDI anyone?).

We still have the same gas guzzling fleet parked in our driveways, and will for about 7-10 years which is the time it takes to "turn over" the national fleet.

I am not a disconnected elitist. My personal fleet consists of a minivan, a compact SUV for the wife (Escape), and a 3/4 ton 4x4 truck. I'm not rich by any means, but I did have the ability to park my gas sucking truck in 2003 when I bought a cheap 30 mpg car to drive to work. Gas was less than $2 then and I already felt I was wasting too much fuel in the F250 to be economical or ecological. After 2 kids that car got replaced by the van so I am down to a 22 mpg vehicle and it hurts to fill it up...but the truck stayes parked and has accumulated less than 6000 miles in 5 years (including a few long road trips to pick up tractors).

So, should we drill for more domestic oil? Drill offshore? Open up the Strategic Petroleum Reserve? Go for MORE Ethanol?

Unfortunately, all of the above only address the SUPPLY side of things, and there isn't enough new supply to make a difference in short/intermediate term pricing. And if the prices did magically decrease, demand would then again increase to use up the supply and keep prices pegged where we don't want them.

of course, if we were energy independent, then we wouldn't have to suffer from/enjoy the effects of world market pricing. If demand stays high - here and abroad - prices of gasoline, diesel, and all competing fuels will stay high too. And, with Asia and Africa continuing to develop, the likely hood of demand decreasing is all but zero.

Don't get me started on Ethanol...

God forbid (or Alla forbid, or Budda forbid, etc. per your personal persuasion) that we see a terrorist plot that starts knocking out tankers on the ocean, distribution hubs in the persian gulf, or refineries in the south. We'll be longing for the days of $5 gas then.

Energy really ought to be the top priority for this election cycle. The era of cheap oil is, unfortunately, over and all we get from our elected leaders in response is the pandering call for "freedom from foreign oil", "home-grown energy", "safe exploration in the artic", "limits on oil company profits", and so on. Or a summer freeze on the gasoline tax.

Come on!

The ironic flip side to this is that the current high prices have finally ensured a return on investment for industries to invest in new extraction methods and sources of energy. Lucrative businesses to be in I'd bet, but none of us have likely chosen the right career paths to see any benefits. Steer your kids into nukes, plastics, and alternative energy technologies.

This is a long term problem. Dislike the OPEC nations as you must, but we will be forever indentured to them as long as we refuse to curb our demand and alter our lifestyles. The Shah of Iran - before his overthrow - expressed that oil was "too valuable to burn". We (the world), of course, didn't listen. We depend too heavily on oil for plastics, fertilizer, medicines, and vasoline to keep up at this pace.

So, do I have all the answers? No way, but I think we should be prepared to accept more nuclear power in our own backyards (nuclear material is, by the way, not an unlimited resource either as many would like us to think), small cars, wind power, lots of solar, and more government mandates on conservation (like taxes on home size and efficiency, mpg ratings, "carbon taxes", etc.). And, we have to get used to high prices because they are here to stay no matter how much additional oil is "found".

End of rant...

Steve

[wh500special 2,053]

In my haste, i forgot to add another bit of free advice:

Slow down.

The amount of energy it takes to overcome wind resistance in your vehicle is proportional to the square of your speed. So double your speed, and the resistance goes up by a factor of four.

In my van I have been experimenting over the same stretch of road for a few months now. It is a state highway of about 20 uninterupted miles were I can set the cruise at a speed and calculate fuel economy (both directions). Virtually no traffic except during planting and harvest seasons.

Yes, I am a nerd.

At any rate, at 70 mph, the van (Mercury Monterey) gets 21 mpg. At 50 mph (agonizingly slow) I get 29 mpg.

I don't have the data in front of me, but it is something like this...

Speed MPG

50 29

55 28

60 26

65 24

70 21

75 19

If you plot this, you won't get the relationship I narrate in the paragraph above, but it does show how speed makes a BIG difference.

The EPA rating for the van on the highway was 23 mpg.

Steve

[linen beige 14]

I hate to comment too much on things I don't fully understand, but here goes anyway...

Does anyone outside the oil industry really understand the world oil market?

I do think that Brazil's oil discovery could have much more impact on world politics than most realize. From your polish up on your Portugese line, I'd say you're thinking along the same lines. I just pray that those changes are good for us.

[WheelHorse_of_course 99]

I hate to comment too much on things I don't fully understand, but here goes anyway...

So, no movement in price should be expected.

Funny thing is that Brazil really will cash in on these reserves since they are already energy independent due to planning undertaken in the 70's (sugarcane ethanol is a major spoke in that wheel). Good for them for having the initiative to look further down the road than any of our leaders have recently (although they import a sizeable share of their food...guns or butter, guns or butter).

Thankfully, the US and Brazil are still on good relations despite the current administration's foreign policy fumbling...So brush up on your Portuguese and get behind those free trade agreements.

I know we all like to point our fingers at the middle east oil exporters (you choose which finger to use on your own), but the largest single source of foreign oil the US imports actually comes from Canada. So, when you think about it more critically, we are really at the mercy of EVERYBODY who is putting oil into the world market - not just those in the middle east that we all so lovingly denigrate and stereotype.

So, those getting richer aren't just the ones we see living in the deserts.

I am not looking forward to filling my propane tank this year either. My house is not well insulated and my wife and kids like to keep it warmer than I think we should. We burn though about 700 gallons of C3H8 eack winter. Last year the price was about $1.75 a gallon (liquid) and I haven't yet checked on this year's price. it will certainly be much higher though and I happen to be due for a fill very soon. At least the electric heat pump helps a little until it gets too cold.

Don't get me wrong, I am not at all happy with the price we are seeing at the pump or from the fuel delivery man; but we all knew (or should have known) these days were coming for a long time. Until recent years, the price of gas was STILL lower (in inflation adjusted dollars) than it was for almost the entire history of consuming gasoline as a fuel source (with some blips on the chart). Energy prices had been constantly decreasing for over 20 years.

Finally, we are stuck playing catch up for all the years we had of easy living. Truckers are just the first casualty of this. The rest of us might have to give up smoking or hobbies to keep living an otherwise unhindered lifestyle...or we will have to do what the rest of the world does and stop driving big vehicles (yes, I know it can be more complicated than that, but it's a start).

When gas crested $2 a gallon we complained, by who amoung us gave up driving an SUV, truck, or van? Not many.

When gas hit $3 a gallon we raised our eyebrows and we downsized from Suburbans and Expeditions to Trailblazers and Explorers.

Now we're at $4 a gallon and we are certainly headed for $5. Ford is closing plants that make trucks and is bleeding cash like a harpooned whale, but Focus sales have exploded. Perhaps $4 was finally the price where demand will start to normalize and we all will adapt our behavior.

A close friend of mine - and a former WH nut - was advocating a tax for $5/gallon gas 10 years ago. His plan - which looks like a stroke of genius in retrospect - would have invested the revenue from said tax into roads, public transit, alternative fuels, etc. It would have also incentivized private interests to come up with something to sell (cellulosic ethanol, biodiesel, fuel cells, etc) at a profit that consumers actually would have demanded. We would have been somewhere by now.

instead, gas stayed cheap and detroit (and the imports) continued to satisfy our demands for big, heavy, powerful vehicles. Now the popular media and activists like to blame the Big 3 for their poor decisions to get drawn into a "big vehicle" market and their resulting suffering, but they followed the demand e-x-a-c-t-l-y and built us the inefficient behemoths we wanted to buy. Now, they're stuck with an inventory that can't be sold without a pile of cash on the hood (rebates) or gimmicks ($2.99 gas guarantee).

Big kudos to Toyota and Honda for dumping money into hybrids before there was a market for the product - the first Prius and Insights were treated as novelties or science fair experiements, but now they are the darling of commuters. Resale values of diesel VW's have actually increased to where many are worth more used than they were new (PAssat wagon TDI anyone?).

We still have the same gas guzzling fleet parked in our driveways, and will for about 7-10 years which is the time it takes to "turn over" the national fleet.

I am not a disconnected elitist. My personal fleet consists of a minivan, a compact SUV for the wife (Escape), and a 3/4 ton 4x4 truck. I'm not rich by any means, but I did have the ability to park my gas sucking truck in 2003 when I bought a cheap 30 mpg car to drive to work. Gas was less than $2 then and I already felt I was wasting too much fuel in the F250 to be economical or ecological. After 2 kids that car got replaced by the van so I am down to a 22 mpg vehicle and it hurts to fill it up...but the truck stayes parked and has accumulated less than 6000 miles in 5 years (including a few long road trips to pick up tractors).

So, should we drill for more domestic oil? Drill offshore? Open up the Strategic Petroleum Reserve? Go for MORE Ethanol?

Unfortunately, all of the above only address the SUPPLY side of things, and there isn't enough new supply to make a difference in short/intermediate term pricing. And if the prices did magically decrease, demand would then again increase to use up the supply and keep prices pegged where we don't want them.

of course, if we were energy independent, then we wouldn't have to suffer from/enjoy the effects of world market pricing. If demand stays high - here and abroad - prices of gasoline, diesel, and all competing fuels will stay high too. And, with Asia and Africa continuing to develop, the likely hood of demand decreasing is all but zero.

Don't get me started on Ethanol...

God forbid (or Alla forbid, or Budda forbid, etc. per your personal persuasion) that we see a terrorist plot that starts knocking out tankers on the ocean, distribution hubs in the persian gulf, or refineries in the south. We'll be longing for the days of $5 gas then.

Energy really ought to be the top priority for this election cycle. The era of cheap oil is, unfortunately, over and all we get from our elected leaders in response is the pandering call for "freedom from foreign oil", "home-grown energy", "safe exploration in the artic", "limits on oil company profits", and so on. Or a summer freeze on the gasoline tax.

Come on!

The ironic flip side to this is that the current high prices have finally ensured a return on investment for industries to invest in new extraction methods and sources of energy. Lucrative businesses to be in I'd bet, but none of us have likely chosen the right career paths to see any benefits. Steer your kids into nukes, plastics, and alternative energy technologies.

This is a long term problem. Dislike the OPEC nations as you must, but we will be forever indentured to them as long as we refuse to curb our demand and alter our lifestyles. The Shah of Iran - before his overthrow - expressed that oil was "too valuable to burn". We (the world), of course, didn't listen. We depend too heavily on oil for plastics, fertilizer, medicines, and vasoline to keep up at this pace.

So, do I have all the answers? No way, but I think we should be prepared to accept more nuclear power in our own backyards (nuclear material is, by the way, not an unlimited resource either as many would like us to think), small cars, wind power, lots of solar, and more government mandates on conservation (like taxes on home size and efficiency, mpg ratings, "carbon taxes", etc.). And, we have to get used to high prices because they are here to stay no matter how much additional oil is "found".

End of rant...

Steve

Excellent post Steve!

1) We HAD such leaders in the 70's but all of the good stuff that was put in was ripped out during the "Reagan Revolution".

We could have done it but out "leaders" thought we would rather ignore our problems and pay later rather than pay them. So instead prices after inflation dropped for decades. :imstupid:

Of course it continued and continued (and Clinton did nothing to undue the damage) so we ended up with a preference for giant SUVs and now higher oil prices.

During the 2000 election you should have me screaming at the TV every time the Texas Oil Man talked about how "energy policy" was his area of expertise.

And yes, we had in place such a "windfall profits" tax that was intended to raise the price of gas. It was very clever. As the price of gas went up the tax was reduced. It was meant to increase prices while adding stability. Too bad it was eliminated.

2) At the moment one of the biggest causes for increased petroleum prices is not supply and demand but the fact the dollar has dropped dramatically.

Not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing since it makes our exports (and labor cheaper on the world market. I work for an Irish company and they treat me very well, in part because I am a bargain!

3) Things will get a LOT worse before the get better, IMHO. I am not generally a spiteful person but if the market crashes I will enjoy watching the gazillionaires jumping out the windows of their pent houses.

4) BTW - Brazil had no way of proving up front that they could achieve what they have done. Various things happend along the way that could not have been predicted that made it work.

For example, the waste product that is left after making the ethanol from sugar cane is no longer a waste product. It is feed stock for other things. At first it was a waste product and the had to pay to get rid of it. Then people found uses for it and took it away for free. No it is sold!

Good old American know how.... err, maybe that is good old South American know how... err, maybe that is good old United States (of Brazil) know how...

OH, I guess what it really is POLITICS as USUAL in the USA.

We have be mal-led.

[Curmudgeon 28]

HMMMMMMM

I have a couple of comments, at least.

1) Nuclear costs even more than gas to produce. Oh sure, they claim it's cheap, but without the government funneling in millions and millions of dollars to build the plants, they would never turn a profit in the end unless electricity was many many times the rate it is now. And where does the governments money come from? Your pocket. Nope, nuclear doesn't cut it. And with a half life of forever and day, talk about doing something today and letting your grandkid worry about the consequences!!!

2) Why did the railroads all get torn up? Gee does anyone remember the millions oil companies spent on lobbying our legislators to build roads and get rid of those pesky railroads? Car companies also had a hand in that. Government is not of the people by the people for the people, it's of the money, by the money and for the money. Given the money the oil and car companies had to work with 40 years ago, public transportation was doomed as well decent gas mileage standards. Why don't we export cars overseas? We can't build a car that meets the standards everyone else in the world does. Why?

Number 3, that's why. The typical american consumer looks at a new car, sees a CUP HOLDER, or ten of them, a fancy radio, windows and doors that open via an electric motor, and thinks WOW!!! This is the car for me. No one looked at mileage. The auto industry filled the need created by the typical american consumer.

4) Okay consumer, now it's time to live with it.

5) How many here realize we EXPORT millions of barrels of oil to China?

6) And last. I'm 50 years old, gave 21 years and a good back to a factory. They tossed me aside like yesterdays wash to hire younger and dumber for less. Now I'm too old to hire (don't tell me there is no age discrimination, there is, many of us wound up looking, the 30 somethings got jobs right away, 40 somethings soon did, 50? Forget it, several of us were over a year in the unemployment line, only benefits ran out after 6 months, at which time we left the unemployment roll, and were officially no longer unemployed, even though we still didn't have jobs.) My back is shot so any real manual labor is out of the question, but it's in good enough shape I'm not disabled.

Bottom line, I'm working for JUST over minimum wage with little hope for the future.

Welcome to america gentlemen, where the gazillionaires always will be, and the rest of us are, well, it starts with F and ends with D. Don't believe me? Wait a few days.

Yup. I'm disgruntled.

[CasualObserver 3,406]

Sheesh... my bad. Should've known better than to bring up controversial topics. I merely wanted to know if anyone had heard the news!

But... to add just a note... yes, Steve, you're right... the timeline for this find in Brazil will be measured in years at this point. As with any discovery that leaks in the media... they don't even know for sure what they have yet! So add up a couple years to research, investigate and estimate, then tack on a couple years for testing and development, then construction, extraction and refining.... we're probably looking at a minimum 10-15 years before any real impact will happen... IF it will even come to that!! I would hope we're all driving fuelcell cars/trucks by then! Surely we've all at least heard of that by now haven't we? I mean...Allis Chalmers built a tractor in the 50s with that technology... it's in the Smithsonian now.

My original point (to lay aside ANY political debates because, well... they're wasted on me) was since the post was about rising gas prices... I was pointing out how fickle and wishy washy the market is right now, that news of even a possibility that "new" oil had been found, there was a drop in the price of crude.

[HorseFixer 2,012]

These wheel horse extravaganza trips have just about killed me this year. I was going to take a couple horses to the show in PA this year and probably am but I'm not liking it any. My jeep gets about 21 mph on the highway and 11 pulling my trailer. My brother in law was telling me that his dodge hemi get 17 no matter if he is pulling a trailer or what. That 4.0 in the Jeep defiantly knows that the trailer is back there.

I'm an HVAC mechanical contractor by trade before I went to work for my county. I currently still hold my Michigan license. Now is the time to get your furnaces cleaned the best you can. If you have oil you need to get the vent stack and breeching cleaned real good in and around the heat exchanger so you have good heat transfer. 1/4" of soot can amount in a 30% reduction in efficiency. If you can get someone to ck your O2 levels and stack temp and adjust burner will help also.

I don't doubt that wood stoves, fireplaces, sidekicks will be back in full swing this heating season with the fuel prices climbing. I have never been an advocate of wood burning but I am reconsidering my position in lue of our current fuel cost situation. The best money is spent in insulating your home the best you can the Lower the loss the smaller the heating plant you will need. There are many ways to lower the furnace size once you insulate. Oil burners are easy just change the nozzle and readjust burner. Gas remove an orifice, then screw in a pipe plug. Electric guys, remove a wire off of one bank to one of the elements. Many furnaces I have found over the years in peoples homes are over sized. and that plays havoc with efficiency.

I have had many customers insulate their homes, weatherstrip, close off an unused fireplace vent, and done many small things and were able to reduce their energy needs considerably.

Duke

[Curmudgeon 28]

Sheesh... my bad. Should've known better than to bring up controversial topics. I merely wanted to know if anyone had heard the news!

My original point (to lay aside ANY political debates because, well... they're wasted on me) was since the post was about rising gas prices... I was pointing out how fickle and wishy washy the market is right now, that news of even a possibility that "new" oil had been found, there was a drop in the price of crude.

Oh come on, Jason. Jump right in with both feet. Doesn't make any difference if anyone agrees with you or not, saying your piece is good for the soul.

[wh500special 2,053]

Wow, now THIS is a discussion!!!

I wish I had more well thought tidbits of knowledge to add, but I almost used up everything I had on my first post...

But, that won't stop me this time either...

True, nobody who isn't in the oil trading business can fully understand how it all works. But the fact that the bbl is still valued in the US dollar is a big piece of the puzzle explaining where some of the price hikes have come from. And, like in any other traded market, oil speculators react wildly to any news that can possibly affect prices down the line. kind of like the proverbial butterfly flapping his wings halfway around the world.

In the 70's after the first oil crisis, i think it was Nixon who actually tried to lay out a plan on how to get the US back into domestically sourced energy. I guess things didn't work out for him - in more ways than one - and Ford had to make the same promises. As did Carter - but at least he donned a sweater and turned down the heat in the whitehouse. Reagan didn't try to kid anybody on the topic of energy and put no effort into it at all one way or the other - bad news doesn't fly when you're painting a picture of a shining city on a hill. By the time GHW Bush and Clinton came along energy was so cheap again nobody cared anymore.

The problem was that the end dates kept getting pushed further and further down the line and were always meant to be somebody else's prblem. And there was always the hope that some magic technological advance would give us huge leaps in efficiency.

Now, we're in a pinch with no plan B.

but without high prices or government mandates, there really was no motivation for the private sector to do anything but take the path of least resistance and just provide consumers with what was most profitable at the time while continuing to placate the desire for higher power. Today's high prices are spurring innovation, not the "leadership" we get from both parties in DC.

Automobiles are the easiest thing to talk about, but other areas of energy use are equally or more important but much more obscure.

there seems to be in the general population a real belief that Detroit and the other automakers have been holding back on some wonderful technolgies that can provide higher efficiencies at low costs (rememeber the 100 mpg carburator myth?). They haven't held back at all! Instead we've seen a steady rise in power outputs of every size class of automobile engine used today.

Instead of keeping power outputs for a given auto size at a relatively unchanged level, we've seen the new technologies (fuel injection, computerization, multivalve arrangements, etc) applied to similarly sized engines to increase their power. it takes more fuel to make more power - NO EXCEPTIONS. it is a law of thermodynamics.

geez, just look at what happened with the diesel engines offered in pickup trucks! i remember the first Dodge Cummins engines put out about 160 HP and got 20+mpg and were STILL plenty adequate. Today they make about twice the power and get lousy mpg (comparatively). It didn't have to happen that way but fuel was cheap and power "feels" good. and, marketing drives the "mine is bigger than yours" feeling - hence the 25 hp riding mowers at Home Depot.

But, on the bright side, newer engine technologies are offering better power output from smaller engines. The new direct gas injection engines offer high specific power outputs when called upon, but do return misery mpg ratings when driven gently. in fact, Ford is betting the farm on this for their new (not on the market yet) Ecoboost (or something like that) engines (even if you're not a disciple of Henry, you should hope it's a winning bet because they are teetering on the brink). These are already working for VW/Audi and in many higher performance cars - but again they have mostly been tailored to make maximum power so far at the expence of economy...and the advancement isn't cheap either.

i hate to think we as a nation get the government we deserve, but I guess that is the case with any democracy. Aspiring politicians know it is unwise to suggest that any policy might hurt somebody so they forgo the long term vision for appeasement of the crowd today. No surprise then that we always have "issues" on the back burner that are bound to boil over some day. Energy, Social Security, Education, obesiity, Environment, Jobs, Mortgage crisis, etc..

We go for flash, style, and soundbites. Or -even worse - we pick our favorite issue and use it as a litmus test for who we vote for (even in state elections where some issues are not terribly important since they are federally decied). Or - worst of all - we vote along party lines without giving much thought to what things really mean to us personally.

I'm sure we're all guilty of at least one of these things (I know I have been).

We like to hear a candidate tell us we can grow our fuel. Or split water molecules to propel our cars. But we give no followup as to HOW this will work and WHAT it will cost and we continue to let the media entertain us with stories of brittany Speers and Paris Hilton instead of asking the HOW questions and demanding real answers. mAny things are possible given enough money.

I'd love to see Hydrogen become the fuel of the future, and I am sure it will be part of it. After all, hydrogen is plentiful and there is certainly a demand for it. unfortunately it likes to be bound up with other stuff (like Oxygen) and it takes a helluva lot of work to get it to let go so we can recombine it to make power. And, going back to our thermodynamics, you will ALWAYS (without exception) get less power out than you put in trying to make the Hydrogen usable...always pushing the rock up the hill.

Even after you make it, you have to compress it to several thousand psi to store an amount that gives you a reasonable range of miles.

(if we had a fleet of cars on the road right now that ran on H2, we'd be looking for something better and would be looking at gasoline with a curious eye.)

Where's that power come from? Most easily, it comes from electricity. But that means either we start burning a lot more coal - effectively powering our fleet with it indirectly - or we seek out the miracles of nuclear, wind, and solar power. all of these have issues.

Dale's right, nuclear is expensive. and the leftover material will last many lifetimes . i reallly don't have a handle on the economics of its production, but given that no utilty has made any effort to construct a new plant in the last decade you can bet the ROI isn't very good.

Solar is a tough call since current solar cells don't recoup much energy and are incredibly expensive. Wind farms are controverial due to reasons ranging from discrupting migratory birds to obscuring the million dollar view out the window of your summer home in nantucket. you do have a summer home, don't you?

I've wondered about the economics of wood burning stoves to heat a home. Certainly if it was really that cheap we would have not all switched 60 years ago to oil or gas. I guess if you have a "free" supply of wood you'd be set other than the human energy you put into dealing with the wood. My neighbor heats almost exclusively with wood, but he also works for the hwy dept and maintains roadsides. as such, he can haul home whatever they clear out everyday and add it to his burn pile. He is always outside fooling with the stuff getting it ready for winter.

I have joked to my wife before that we should save all of the junk mail, catalogs, packing material, and other clean paper we toss out and heat the house with it. Can you imagine how much paper we pitch every year?

That brings me to another thing that is costing our society more than we can hope to accurately quantify...our wanton wastefullness. Why does breakfast cereal come in a bag inside a box? Why are ears of corn sold in the grocery store conveniently packaged on a foam tray wrapped in plastic film? Why does every homeowner think they have to rip out a workable kitchen to replace it with premium cabinets and granite countertops? Why drink bottled water when tap water is perfectly healthy? Why have we become a society that must have all the latest and greatest of everything to be happy?

I guess the fact that the US grew AFTER the industrial revolution really locked us into many of our problems. We spread out further than out European cohorts and established a culture, basically, around the idea of cheap transportation. And, the US is geographically big compared to most European countries and we have a "double government" system (Fed/state) that results in having social/goverment services cpread out over large geographic areas. So, to pretend we can be like Europe is silly.

but we can learn a few things. Like efficient use of rail travel. I wish I had a reason the railroads have decreased that didn't have to do with our personal reliance on the automobile or our decentralized industry,but I don't. One thing is certain though, rebuilding and operating a new railway would be extrodinarally expensive.

Dale brings up a point about using up his health in a factory...I can't personally relate (although I have had factory jobs), but I know my granfdparents experienced similar things in their lives. they were fortunate enough to leave work at retirement age and enjoy pensions that hadn't been pillaged, but had something happened to their health late in their careers, they'd have been out of luck.

That's why the education system needs to do a better job - and i am not blaming the teachers nor their unions here. i know in my hometown, we had basically two tracks in high school: College prep; Everybody else.

"Everybody Else" were the kids who weren't going to go to college for whatever reason. We had - for a time -wonderful vocational training programs to help these folks find good, skilled jobs. But when the money in the district got tight the first thing to go was building trades. then woodshop. then sheetmetal...On down the line until all that was left was automotive and drafting.

I'd have first cut the football team and asked the community to pass a bond issue. Still no response? Get rid of soccer, baseball, etc.

If a school system is going to bother with having kids in the building for 8 hours a day, at least they can try to do something to make sure they find gainful employment so they can pay taxes and keep the school afloat for another generation.

Instead we churn out college students and kids who must fight for the few factory jobs that are left and push aside the old timers who may just have something to offer in addition to a strong back and set of arms.

It's late...better quit now.

Steve

[linen beige 14]

The industrial revolution was started with, and powered for decades, with the most plentiful, yet most wasted resource on earth. WATER! In my part of the country every county is filled with roads named after the mills that they once led to. Then the hydro mills were slowly replaced by steam power, and it soon became portable. And the race for most convenient was on!

With all the talk of solar, wind, hydrogen, etc. power I still cannot fathom why the wasted potential of water continues to go un-noticed.

I would venture a bet that there is not a single 50 mile stretch of navigable stream in this country that could not produce the electrical power needed to run a small city. And after it was used to produce that power the water is still there, and did not get polluted in the process. Flood control dams are everywhere in the U.S., and most are constantly releasing a flow of water that could easily turn generators, yet just gets dumped downstream. Navigation locks have some potential that also gets wasted.

Along the several thousand miles of ocean shoreline of the U.S. there is another untapped hydro power source, tidal flow. A steady, predictable rise and fall of untold gazillions of gallons of water, each gallon exerting roughly 8 pounds of unused work. One average sized pier which weighs thousands of tons is lifted and lowered by tides like childsplay and could be used to drive gearboxes to spin flywheels to power generators.

Solar power? forget it in the direction it's going. But, I recall reading an article some 35 years ago about a company that built solar sea water evaporators to desalinate sea water. They consisted of a large glass dome with a trough around the inside lower edge. This trough sat atop a floating ring. Sunlight passing through the glass caused seawater to evaporate and rise up to the glass. It then condensed and trickled along the inside of the glass and filled the trough, flowed to a drain pipe and was collected on shore. Free (except for maintenance) distilled water. These devices could also be used to raise the water 30-40 feet above the ocean and as the condensed water flowed toward earth it could be used to turn a small turbine. And you still got distilled water as well.

Solar power CAN be effecient if used to heat water into steam. Steam is a very effecient power source. Superheated, high pressure steam can be used to power 3-4-or more progressively larger bore, lower pressure cylinders, each using the exhaust from the previous cylinder. The railroads commonly used 2 and 3 cylinder compound engines for years. Steam rail travel has been relegated to novelty status due to it being labor intensive, but stationary steam power does not require water towers and coal piles every so many miles. Solar produced steam requires no fossil fuels at all. Battery technology has increased enough to store power from daylight for nightime use.

Wind power? Why the huge propellers and sky high towers? Would it not make more sense to build something akin to large funnels that would route the wind to gound-mounted turbines? Or even upright cage type turbines that don't have to be constantly reoriented to wind direction (like the system Jay Leno installed at his garage.). Ever notice the rush of wind from vehicles passing on the highway? France has, and they have installed cage type turbines in some of the crash walls of their major roads that charge batteries which power the street lights and more.

Electric cars? If only they had more range, or they aren't fast enough seem to be commonly pointed out reasons for not being popular. Ranges well over 100 miles per charge are common now. How many of us drive more than 100 miles in a typical day? There are several electric cars on the market right now that will go 0 to 60 in less than 5 seconds, some less than 3. How many gas burners can do that? And with dynamic braking they can stop nearly as quickly, and use their own inertia to recharge while braking. Most have very low centers of gravity and are VERY maneuverable. They just don't go VROOOM when you step on them, so aren't as much fun. Unless you are driving one in the lane next to the teenager with the old muscle car. Great fun to be waiting at the next light when he gets there, and the next, and the next...

Even more so if he has a cutie in the car with him.

Hybrids? Gimmicks, you won't be able to pay to dispose of one in less than a decade. The railroads have the right idea on hybrids, deisel/electric. They've been using them since before most of Toyota's people were born. Extremely fuel effecient. Why don't the truck builders try this set-up?

Rebuild the railroads? How many of you know that President Bush allocated funds to rebuild/increase capacity of ALL tunnels east of the Mississippi river? In conjunction with other improvements meant to make it possible for double stack freight trains to go from coast to coast without being broken down to single level for the eastern part of the trip. Also intended to allow the use of the double deck passenger trains seen out west. Hopes are to spark more interest in rail travel by making it possible to go coast to coast without changing cars. It also doubles the number of commuters that can be carried in a given length train. A plus in the east where short passing sidings can limit train lengths.

Gas prices have gone up again! What are they gonna do to us next? The real queston should be, what are WE gonna do for OURSELVES?