Ice Dams

[mr.pipes 4]

So we all have heard by now about the snow loads on the roofs in the Northeast. There has been a little less talk about the ice dams that are occurring as a result.

I shoveled my mothers roof Thursday because she has an addition with a low pitch roof. I also wanted to eliminate anything that would allow the ice dams to grow larger. The are quite large at the gutter and have begun to leak into the house in at least two places. I am aware of how the ice dams form and would like to hear any tips or methods you may have used to remove an established ice dam successfully.

The roof is just over a year old so I don't like the idea of chipping at the ice because of the possibility of damaging the roof. I would like to try calcium chloride in a ice sock am not sure if they will damage the asphalt shingles.

Any tips on things I can do my self are appreciated. Thanks

[porkchop 1]

When I had my shingles replaced they installed an Ice dam material on the first 3 feet of the roof by the gutter and 3foot wide in all the valleys. It looked like !/4 inch thick rubber material. I don,t have any problems with it but I guess the gutters could fill up and leak back in around the facia.

[rmaynard 14,922]

I had gutter covers professionally installed. Not only do I not get ice dams, but I never have to clean leaves out of my gutters. If you decide to install covers, don't settle for cheap imitations, go with Gutter Helmet. You get what you pay for.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[can whlvr 991]

i have used a HOT water pressure washer,it has a boiler on it to heat the water,works good but takes some time and u will get wet

[mr.pipes 4]

When I had my shingles replaced they installed an Ice dam material on the first 3 feet of the roof by the gutter and 3foot wide in all the valleys. It looked like !/4 inch thick rubber material. I don,t have any problems with it but I guess the gutters could fill up and leak back in around the facia.

There is "Ice and Water" barrier installed the first three feet of the entire house and the low pitch roof is completly covere with the "Ice and Water" rubber barrier. The shingles get nailed through this but it is supposed to be self healing around the nail holes.

The dams are over the three feet only as far as I can tell but it is still leaking in somehow. What a pain. I guess I need to find some way to get hot water up there and melt some channels.

[rmaynard 14,922]

..but I guess the gutters could fill up and leak back in around the fascia.

and therein lies your problem. The secret is to keep the snow and ice out of the gutters.

[sorekiwi 761]

I get them pretty bad at my house too (160 year old farmhouse).

Last winter I filled up the legs of some pantyhose with rocksalt and laid them across the icedams every 4 feet or so. It took about 3 days to eat a channel through a 10" layer of ice.

As for whether it damages the shingles or not, I dont know. I bet it damages them less than beating on the ice with something hard. :thumbs:

[Jim_M 178]

I have heat cables in my gutters, I plug them in whenever the roof is covered in snow. They work great, don't cost much to run and were inexpensive to buy. I got them at Menard's. I haven't had a bit of trouble since I put them in 3 years ago, they keep the gutters flowing and eliminate the ice dams that I used to get.

[VinsRJ 721]

The only way to prevent or reduce the risk of ice dams is to clear all of the snow about 3+ feet above the gutters and or soffets. Other than that the water can back up under the shingles. Now the under-layment is a great product and does keep the water out of the house but it doesn't keep the water out from under the shigles. In some cases the water can freeze heaving on the cold non-flexable shingles causing damage to the shingle itself. Either way snow, ice, ice dams, plowing snow... its all horse-poo IMO. :thumbs:

[64s 83]

To prevent any further damming, you have to get the water to the front of the gutter - either by lying socks fill with ice melt across the ice (from the front of the gutter up to where ever the ice stops), or lay deicing cables across. Either way will take a little time but you have to give the water a channel to run thru. If the water is already coming in the house, go into the attic with a box fan and point it in the direction of where the water in leaking. This should draw colder air to the area and quickly freeze the water. I had to do this in my mother's house and the water stopped leaking within minutes. Of course this assumes that the outside temp is below freezing and the home's heat is causing the ice melt. Once the outside temp is above freezing, you had better have the channels melted in the ice.

Best of luck to everyone with this problem!!

[theoldwizard1 2]

I have one small section of gutters that builds a large ice dam if I don't rake the roof after every snow fall (bottom of a valley). I was not on top of things this year so I had about 8" of ice. Ran a hose from the basement laundry tub for hot water. It took over an hour to do about 4-5' of gutter.

I really should look into heated cables.

[JonW 0]

Another option is Calcium Chloride in nylons. It will melt the ice and then prevent them from reforming.

This spring try and add more insulation to the attic and be sure its venting well.

[Gerry w 2]

When I designed my home I didn't think ahead to ice dams, one reason is because I insulated it so well and used cold roof design. Well, I didn't think about the two metal wood stove stacks coming out of the roof above a valley area. It will melt the snow, and as the water runs down the valley it will freeze, and I will end up with an ice dam that has, in the past, have water come into a 6 yr old home.

My roof is 10 on 12 pitch and 30 plus feet in the air at this point. Needless to say my wife didn't want me up there in the winter anymore, so I installed the ice melt wires. As long as I leave them plugged in,(Unplug if it's below zero.) I have no problem with water or ice. Of course I keep the eves clear with raking them, that stops the ice dams in other locations.

I do not have gutters, but the wires would keep a channel clear in them as well.

Good luck!

[AMC RULES 36,954]

Heaters like these?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...atchlink:top:en

[grnlark 479]

In real life (outside of tractors) I create property and auto adjuster training curricula for a major insurance carrier here in CT. We recently did a nationwide rollout specific to ice dams in preparation of the upcomimg winter season. It's recommended that if a substantial ice dam is present, the most non-evasive method to try and fully eliminate it is to connect a garden hose (or in some cases 2 in line) to the hot side of your washer/dryer water supply. Then run the other end of the hose to the location of the ice dam.

You should first get as much snow cleared away from the immediate area of the dam as possible. Then start with the hot water about 18 inches above the dam itself - on the shingles. The process can be slow depending on how big the ice dam has become, but it does melt reletively quickly. It is recommended that you do this for about 30 minutes then give your hot water tank a chance to recover for about another 30 minutes. Continue to repeat the process until the dam is gone. In some cases it might take several hours. but there is no chance of damaging your shingles or gutters.

[mr.pipes 4]

You should first get as much snow cleared away from the immediate area of the dam as possible. Then start with the hot water about 18 inches above the dam itself - on the shingles. The process can be slow depending on how big the ice dam has become, but it does melt reletively quickly. It is recommended that you do this for about 30 minutes then give your hot water tank a chance to recover for about another 30 minutes. Continue to repeat the process until the dam is gone. In some cases it might take several hours. but there is no chance of damaging your shingles or gutters.

This is the method I was going to try. Luckily we got rain Saturday and warmer temps on Sunday. I had already shoveled the entire roof a few days before so all that was left Sunday were the ice dams on about 80% of the perimeter.

I went on the roof and with a few well placed light blows from a 3lb sledge I knocked them all off with no damage in 15 minutes.

I broke the ice out of half of the gutters and will finish Monday as we will be having warmer weather again. I now have a clean slate so to speak. The plan is to stay on-top of things in the future with the roof rake and will try to get rid of any buildup as it starts.

Thank you everyone for your advise and hopefully others can benefit from it.

[refracman 166]

The Cold / Dry Roof is truely the only way to prevent ice dams and most homeowners can convert their house to this. All supplies you'll need are at your local homesupply store and houses built before 1940 ( ballon construction) can be done. It is code for all new / remodel construction. Also all shingle manufacture gaurentees require it or they are void.

Its simply installing insulation channel that transfer the air from the soffit to the attic area. To get the best results install between evey rafter. Make sure you have soffit vents. (48 sq in per 2 liner ft of soffit) You can either install ridge vent or box vents, 1 for every 300 sq ft of roof area.

To remove existing dams the only way to prevent roof/shingle damage is heat tape. Useing the hammer method while you might not see it you are damageing your roof/ shingles.

Trust me on this I made a lot of money from people doing this.

Besides the danger factor.

Heat tape is available from you local supply house in both lenghts or a spool. If you go this route make sure a GFI outlet or GFI circuit braker is used and wired according to code. You will want it on its own circuit with no lead cords.

On the ice and water gaurd. If it is not lapped down onto the facia it will not preform as designed. There is usually a gap between the plywood and facia board. To be properly installed it should lap down onto the facia min. 3 in and up 3ft past where the wall and rafter meet per manufacturer specs. I go to the bottom of the facia and 5ft past. I have been installing it since the mid 80s and have found this is a best practice.

[AMC RULES 36,954]

Humm, sounds complicated. I need a pict or instructional video. Know of anything available on-line? :thumbs:

[grnlark 479]

There is a great animation clip on this page that illustrates the cause(s) of ice dams. It's really designed to be a pitch for the product they are selling, but aside from the obvious its and educational video as well.

http://www.thermaltechusa.com/

[mr.pipes 4]

On the ice and water gaurd. If it is not lapped down onto the facia it will not preform as designed. There is usually a gap between the plywood and facia board. To be properly installed it should lap down onto the facia min. 3 in and up 3ft past where the wall and rafter meet per manufacturer specs. I go to the bottom of the facia and 5ft past. I have been installing it since the mid 80s and have found this is a best practice.

I work in the trades and have spent over half the time in residential new construction. I am very curious, maybe a bit nosy about how everything is done. I have never noticed the Ice & Water lapped over the fascia. I didn't see the roof and siding when it was done a year and a half ago so I cannot be sure without some further investigation.

I haven't measured the area of soffit vents but I think there isn't enough. It is vinyl with the 1/4" or smaller holes and the spacing seems far. There is a full length ridge vent but I don't believe there are baffles in the rafters from the soffit. The house is 33 yrs old and I am pretty sure nothing has been done in the attic since the insulation was blown in on initial construction.

I'm going to look into the area of the vents and install baffles and hope this corrects it. Ice dams have never been a problem before but this has been an abnormal winter.

[refracman 166]

Your correct most guys dont install it properly. They install it like roofing felt which is incorrect but a whole lot faster and easier. Its there to prevent ice and water from backing up the roof line. If its installled like felt it leaves no protection to the area where the roof and facia meet. Also it should extent 3' up the roof line past where the rafters sit on the wall for the best protection.

With vinyl depending if they continuiosly vented soffit or every other one your good to go, any less and you'll need to add more.

And just guessin you'll need to install the inside venting. Before you do though when your up in the attic pull back the insulation from the the area where the wall/ rafters meet ,turn off the lights and if you see light comeing in from the soffit, your vents are clear if not you'll have to remove the soffit and clear the debris.

To install the attic vents.

Pull back the insulation enough so when you install them you dont push any into the soffit, the slide them down so they just clear the wall plate into the soffit, I use a T50 stapler to fasten them inplace to the underside of the roof sheathing. Pack the area around the vent and wall plate with bat insulation . If your going to install more insulation (should be 16" deep and now is the best time) you will need to block the vent openings if you blow it in. I take some string tie around some bat insulation block all the openings first and when your done pull them.

And your house being 33yrs old is before the building industry figured this stuff out. It can about around the early/ mid 90s.

[jimbotelho 1]

Just remove the gutters and away goes the ice dams to worry about but drains around the foundation is a must or the basement will get all the runoff from the roof Some old farmhouses never had gutters and I wonder how it worked for them?? any chimers on this just a thought Jim :thumbs:

[sscotsman 132]

Just remove the gutters and away goes the ice dams to worry about but drains around the foundation is a must or the basement will get all the runoff from the roof Some old farmhouses never had gutters and I wonder how it worked for them?? any chimers on this just a thought Jim

"no gutters" only works if you have really well-draining gravel soil..

or live in an area with very little rain or snowfall..but for most people, you need to have gutters..unless you dont mind your foundation falling apart.

One thing I didnt see mentioned in this thread, (or if it was brought up, I didnt see it.)..the best way to fight ice dams..prevent them from forming in the first place!

the key is good insulation..If you get large amount of icicles hanging off your roof, you dont have enough insulation..too much heat is escaping from the house into the attic, warming the snow from beneath, melting it, and causing much water and ice to form..Good insulation keeps your attic as cold as possible, and prevents the snow cover from melting from beneath..and the cost of more insulation will eventually pay for itself in reduced heating bills..(making sure there is good venting is very important too..)

We have 1 to 2 feet of snow on the roof pretty much all winter..virtually no icicles , and no ice dams..

Scot

[refracman 166]

Most old farm homes where built on hills, had stone foundations, and used stumps or rocks in the center of the home for support that did not have basements. Those that do have a basement do not have footers under the basment walls. I have yet to find any old farm home that has not settled.

Most people think that older homes are built better, but in most cases this is not true. Almost all homes built before late 60s have structual issues because most of the lumber was undersized for the intended use. i.e. 2x8 for a floor joist, 2x4 for a rafter. Or wall studs are sistered togther because they were to short, no headers over windows and doors. Dimensional lumber as we know it, although not true to sizing, begain during WW2 and is actually a better lumber even with its knots. Wood before then was mostly air dried and not all the way. Green lumber was used along with warped and bowed. Walls are crooked, out of sqaure and a pain to work with. Granted there are the exeption but as a rule most pre WW2 homes are a pain to work on and crooked as heck.

Another myth is"My old house is made of oak", sorry to say it is not. Once wood completely drys out the cells close up tight and hence you have screw instead of nail. Most pre WW2 homes are made of soft woods just like today.

From the structural standpoint I would rather have a home built today than of any other era, and have todays version of plaster ( no asbestos )and trim styles of then.

enough rambleings

[can whlvr 991]

where i live the code is 3 feet above the wall,which usually means 2 layers of ice shield,i am a builder,renovator and i built my own addition on my house,i have the strofoam vents that supposedly keep the plywood cool from thermal bridging,i put r 60 in the attic,ordered special trusses to allow for breathing and insulation,i still get ice dams from the sun,it melts the snow up high on the roof and it freezes in the trough, ,so i guess ice cables and i might try the eaves covers,but its definatly a problem,i didnt have this problem before i put troughs on,but then the basement can get wet,so its hard to win,the hot water from the tap doesnt work here,run out of hot too quickly,thats why i use a hot water pressure washer and work my way down