What happened to Wheel Horse???

[CTPATRIOT 12]

I've owned MANY different brand GT's through the years(and like many).They all have their pros/cons,but the WH is a mighty fine design.Why did Toro kill them off???Could they ever come back???I just don't get it,what a shame .

[TT-(Moderator) 1,127]

There have been several discussions about this in the past.

The bottom line is that the consumer killed the true "garden tractor", not Toro.

They weren't going to keep producing something that wasn't selling.

[stevasaurus 22,231]

Used to be...when you vacationed in Wisconsin...all the souvenirs were made in China...and when you went to China all the souvenirs were made in Wisconsin.

Now all the souvenirs in China are made in China also.

I suspect there are those who do not understand what I just said, and what it has to do with Wheel Horse and Toro...but give it some thought. Although back then it was Japan.

[Ken B 3,116]

I think there are many reasons, here are a few that I can think of.

1. Most people today 'hire a guy" to cut the grass and plow the driveway these days.

2. Its an expensive tractor to make compared to the junk at the box stores. Most people that will actually cut their own grass these days aren't really into buying quality the way they used to back in the day. Back then you bought a quality machine and fully expected it to last at least 25 yrs. and then some. Today most people don't seem to care how long it lasts, as long as it was cheap to purchase.

I think there are many reasons as to why it all ended. To Toro's credit they rode it out as long as they could.

I had a neighbor ask me yesterday how much a new machine like my C-160 would cost now with a cab and a snow blade. I told him you really can't get anything like this nowadays but if you could it would be in the neighborhood of 6 grand. He about had a heart attack!

[Guest]

:ROTF: More specifically, isn't it because Toro is a high volume low margin operation? Like TT commented, the consumer (and I understand that to be the median consumer) lawn and garden demand is not a 'WheelHorse' anymore. At most it's an $800 Walmart/Lowes plastic thingy or other alternative mentioned above. So I agree Toro can't make a buck off it - you can't blame them, the idea doesn't seem to be consistent with their market strategy.

That doesn't mean WheelHorse production isn't profitable, though. Niche markets exist everywhere. As an example, a small one exists for jeep v-8 conversions and there's a profitable outfit in Logan Utah where around 8 guys machine and fabricate (in house, in country with home grown skill) gears, adapter plates, shift kits, etc for jeepsters. I know, I worked there as a designer while attending college. A quick browse of their website is a confidence building tour of domestic ambition alive and well. This is a prototype of what could build WheelHorse - I think.

http://www.novak-adapt.com/index.htm

My analysis: Wheelhorse could easily be a viable brand, but not under Toro's shed - and I suspect that's why its gone. :thumbs:

[flyovrcntry 115]

You know I think theres a lot of reasons.People used to spend most of there free time outside,most had more than a little 75x100 piece of ground.I think folks liked working outside and just being outside.I have heard other people say this,we were only inside to eat and sleep mostly.And like others have said most f us just don't want to do that dirty work anymore.And you guys with young kids know they have a lot more activities today,so that takes time too.I guess what I am saying is folks just dont have a need for a high quality machine,at least in their mind.

[Duff 206]

....which might very well explain why they're reluctant to release any production rights, drawings or anything else that would enable a small shop to start making these tractors again. Just because doesn't fit with their current markeing strategy, chances are Toro realizes that it could become a competitor even in a niche market.

Duff :banghead:

[Guest]

You know I think theres a lot of reasons.People used to spend most of there free time outside,most had more than a little 75x100 piece of ground.I think folks liked working outside and just being outside.I have heard other people say this,we were only inside to eat and sleep mostly.And like others have said most f us just don't want to do that dirty work anymore.And you guys with young kids know they have a lot more activities today,so that takes time too.I guess what I am saying is folks just dont have a need for a high quality machine,at least in their mind.

I agree. It resulted in a gross demand shift.

But the hills are still alive with enthusiasts, and that will never die. :banghead:

[can whlvr 991]

as tt said this has been talked about before but this is today,so i wonder how many of us would buy a brand new machine today,i bought my 308 brand new and it was alot of money in the day,that was before the internet and these excelent forums,i dont regret buying that machine one bit i still have it and its my best tractor,but i couldnt afford a new today because i have 5 tractors and i could buy at least 10 tractors for that,yes u have to wrench a little,but i had a new lawn tractor and i had to wrench on it also,i thought i would not have to but not the case,if i won a bit of money yes i would buy a new wheelhorse,but i probally would just keep using the old girls and not buy new

[Guest]

I would buy one new, no qualms ... and I'd certainly buy new parts too: belts, filters, headlights (good luck with those lenses and buckets as it stands), blades, spindles, tillers etc. How nice would it be to not have to fight people on Ebay for that stuff - just go get it and know its available ... and sure, as many would agree, it is scrupulous to extrapolate what demand there would be based on what you think you would do, I admit. We do it on both sides of the fence. And yet, HD tractors are still being made: Kubota, JD, Cub Cadet to name a few and so I lean in the foggy direction that people would buy Wheelhorses too - a very big lean. (I just don't think the crowd at War-Mart would buy them)

[stevasaurus 22,231]

I think you guys are missing my point. It wasn't just Toro, didn't AMC buy Wheel Horse first? Anyway, back in the late 70's and early 80's...it was all about consolidation, acquisition, and mergers...or you did not think you were going to survive. It was a way that management thought you could keep going. We were getting beat up in productivity by Japan. This is just before our jobs started going over seas. AT&T got split up because of it...all the baby bells. The small, family lumber yards...the small grocery stores...record stores...small meat & fish markets...real hardware stores, where you could go in and buy a nail...even the small neighborhood tavern is gone and a sports bar is in it's place. It was inevitable, and in a few years...no one will remember any of that either. It is called business. I did not even mention banks and S & L's.

Give it some thought.

OH OH....am I on a soap box here. :thumbs:

[dryrun 0]

Well said Steve. When the Big Guys on Wall street decided that the true commodity was the companies, and not what they produced, we started downhill. If your company is public, and does not have a high return on investment, it will be chopped up and sold. When we changed from production, to simply making money on money, you could tell we were in for a world of hurt.

Just my opinion, George

[horsefeathers 15]

Steve, Spit out that Soap! I rember all the Ma'& Pop stores also!

They can't compete with market stratagies of today's hi-profit rollers!

If Wheel Horse did make a comeback it wouldn't be what it was!

A big box store WH made for big sales profit!

This could spike intrest in early production WH tractors!

And bring in afluent buyers that will drive up prices and force us out of collecting!

An RJ wil sell for 30k, D200 50k, B100 (raffle tractor) 20k!

Who can aford that 5 dollar ticket?

[dryrun 0]

Bud, The way the economy is going, We may not have to worry about the afluent buyers.LOL

[horsefeathers 15]

I hear ya' Dryrun! :banghead:

[Guest]

However, we younger punks have to subscribe the optimism, even if it is a lie - since what happens next is on our shoulders. I'm going to go steal those wheelhorse drawings. :banghead:

[Guest]

I heard somewhere that the chinese are now building a tractor called the wheel ox.

[linen beige 14]

I heard somewhere that the chinese are now building a tractor called the wheel ox.

:banghead:

[puddlejumper 67]

I heard somewhere that the chinese are now building a tractor called the wheel ox.

Would not suprise me any. The company I work for just bought a chinese built diesel pile hammer that mimics the old delmag we had closely.Patents dont matter they build it ship it over here by the boatloads and the only thing we ship back is money. With their growth boom and our apparent resistance to manufacture or maintain what we have we best be careful. It scares the hell out of me.

[nylyon-(Admin) 7,121]

Even among us enthusiasts, who would be willing to fork over $7,000 (assuming todays cost for a 416-H) for a new tractor? Especially considering that a ZTR has a better cut and an ATV makes a better utility vehicle.

[T-Mo-(Moderator) 4,345]

I think Karl is right - who wants to spend the kind of money today for a new, quality built machine. Looking at today's inflation, a new Wheel Horse, let's say a D-series, would be around 10 grand. Who is going to fork over that kind of money when, for a few dollars more, they can move up into a sub-compact or compact tractor. We complain about the high cost of the higher end machines from Deere, Cub Cadet, Ingersoll, Kubota, etc., and that's the kind of money it will take to buy a new Wheel Horse today. So the companies had to start making more affordable tractors. Even Toro contracted MTD to build their latest lawn and garden tractors. The consumer drives the market and if the higher end machines would sell the numbers the lower end machines do, then you might see Wheel Horse name make a come back. But who wants an inferior machine with the Wheel Horse name. I actually think Toro did the Wheel Horse name a favor by killing the Wheel Horse name instead of putting that name on MTD built machines.

[nylyon-(Admin) 7,121]

And even still, WH stopped in 2007, how many here bought a new WH? We have lots of old, classics but how many bought a new one? Not many I suspect.

[DoctorHfuhruhurr 132]

In My Opinion:

1. Management failed to innovate and produce a diversified product line while also expanding into other tractor markets.

2. Management failed to re-invest and streamline operations to keep costs down.

I don't believe it's a matter of tractor cost because John Deere has never been known for being inexpensive yet they have done very well and the company stock is nearing an all time high in a down economy. Currently the John Deere x700 series Residential Garden Tractor sells between $9-$14K so their customers don't seem to take issue with those prices.

[theoldwizard1 2]

....which might very well explain why they're reluctant to release any production rights, drawings or anything else that would enable a small shop to start making these tractors again.

Has any one really tried approaching Toro and buying some (not all) of the designs ?

If a small machine shop wanted to "go in business" making replacement parts what are the 10-15 most-popular/hard-to-find parts they should make ?

Perhaps some kind of deal and be made with Toro. They could get maybe 10% of each sale and not have to stock the parts.

Or are the hard-to-find parts sheet metal (much more expensive to make dies and I'll bet the originals are long gone.)

Just because doesn't fit with their current marketing strategy, chances are Toro realizes that it could become a competitor even in a niche market.

I agree with others. There just is very little demand for these tractors. How many people have a real garden (not a 10x20 patch for some tomatoes and peppers).

Most "suburbanites" (like myself) can do fine with a walk-behind or a cheap (disposable) riding mower. Or the hire a service. If you have more than a couple of acres, folks buy a compact tractor.

The real money is in the "commercial" market. Specialized equipment (zero-turn-mowers) especially for golf course maintenance.

[stevasaurus 22,231]

Skinner YES WE CAN...We have hope...you young bucks have to get involved. It will not be easy, but we can do it...we have to do it...we have to do it.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_CQ2qS6uG3hA/S-l-...00/soap_box.gif