water in rear end

[Charrie 19]

Hi all.

I recently acquired a 1985 Wheel Horse 416-8 with the Kohler engine on it. PO said it had been parked under a cover for a few years. It shows some weather mild weather damage but can be cleaned up.

Haven't tired to start it yet. PO said he parked it at the end of the season and it wouldn’t start next spring. He did a little work and then acquired a new mower.

We drained the rear end and a lot of clear water came out at first, at least a qt. After the water came some black looking oil. After draining I put in 2 qts of store brand motor oil that was in shed and turned the wheels by hand. Also before the shiftier was a bit hard to change gears but now it seems to work great.

 

What should I do from here?

I read a post to flush with kerosene and another where someone disassembled the rear end and cleaned everything. The latter is probably the best way to go but I wanted to get some opinions.

I did replace a rear axle seal on my 520h and this 416-8 has a leaking seal.

 

Working on building a new storage building but at the moment I really don’t have a good place to disassemble the rear axle. When I was younger my dad taught me how to rebuild small engines but I have always been intimidated by transmissions.

 

Thanks 

Charrie 

[8ntruck 9,202]

Probably would not be a bad idea to use that store brand motor oil (30 wt?) as a flush.  Diesel fuel will work here, too.  After the flush, drain it again and refill with 80wt gear oil - store brand here is adequate.  As part of the flush procedure, you need to run the tractor around for a few minutes, including tight right hand and left hand turns and run it in all gears to thourally circulate the flushing fluid and try to get the crud in the transmission stirred up and suspended in the oil so it gets drained out.

 

When draining the transmission, it helps to raise the front of the tractor as high as safely possible for you.  There is a hump in the floor of the transmission, and raising the front of the tractor allows the oil ahead of the hump to get to the drain plug.

Edited Sunday at 04:29 AM by 8ntruck

[JoeM 10,134]

Sure wish there was a sure fire answer for this question.

Flushing and refilling is a bit of a gamble. The inside of those cases is not painted. If left unattended for any length of time, rust forms and is pretty hard to get out without disassembly. Flushing pretty much will remove the watered down oil but in the past I have found the rust that forms on the inside of the case on top remains.

Of course the best is to disassemble inspect and clean. @stevasaurus has good vids for this on the tube. Does require some general mechanical ability. 

This case was flushed and then disassembled, note the rust on the top of the case.

One indicator is the dip stick, if it is real rusty that is telling you something. 

 

 

A magnetic drain plug can help but has limitations.

 

 

 

[ri702bill 12,754]

1 hour ago, JoeM said:

One indicator is the dip stick, if it is real rusty that is telling you something. 

Excellent point.

A couple of things......

Flushing with diesel, instead of engine oil, is better because of its lower viscosity. This will make leaking seals - and those on their way out - very apparent. If you have one failed seal, you probably have more.

Plan on changing the shifter boot for a good fitting new one. The shifter acts like a wick if it gets wet. (That is most likely how the water got in).

[ebinmaine 80,188]

6 hours ago, Charrie said:

When I was younger my dad taught me how to rebuild small engines but I have always been intimidated by transmissions.

 

If you can rebuild even the most simple of small engines - then these particular transmissions are a piece of cake and a walk in the park. 

[Ed Kennell 46,857]

I would raise the rear and check the axle bearings for wear.   There should be no radial movement. Axial movement is OK.    If the bearings are OK and there is no noise when rotating the transmission, replace the leaking seal and run it.

[oldlineman 1,784]

I did my 414-8 several years ago, with close supervision from very knowledgeable and great members here. My problem was the broken diff bolt that sometimes happens, if I can do it you can do it, especially with help found here. Bob   

Edited Sunday at 04:39 PM by oldlineman
also changed all seals and axle bearings, easy to do when split

[peter lena 10,000]

@Charrie   water in rear end is a simple PREVENTABLE FIX , fresh  shifter boot , underside lightly GREASED ? GREASED ?  lets it SLIDE over the trans irregularities , held in exact  holding  point with a  wide tye wrap just above boot on shift rod , also  regularly check my trans oil after  cutting , when I top off tank , have a regular  check over after every use , pete

[oliver2-44 11,674]

Since you've put fresh gear oil back in it, get it running and drive it around for a week or two.

As Ed said, jack it up and check axle bearing before replacing  seals, worn bearings will cause new seals to fail .

If axle bearings appear good, you will have to drain it to replace seals, so I would do a diesel or kerosene flush at that time. 

Removing axle hubs is one of the rights of passage as a wheel horse owner!!!!!!!!

When you remove the hubs, do not use a 3 jaw puller, you WILL break them. 

Here a thread with several designs of hub pullers.  You can buy precut heavy round plate disc from several suppliers on EvilBay.

These transmissions are not that complicated. I actually enjoy rebuilding them.

If you decide to rebuild it, drain oil. fill with diesel or kerosene and drive it around a little to do a flush before disassembly.

It sure helps get some of the smelly gear oil off everything.

take plenty of pictures as you disassemble it to help you reassemble it.

Post picture of parts after disassembly and we can help identify anything that needs replaced. 

FYI the hi/lo shift fork assembly and the main shift forks have small balls in them that can easily get lost on disassembly.  You can get replacements in those parts drawers at you ACE or other hardware store (not Home Depo or Lowes)

You can clean rusty gears & shafts up on a bench grinder with a wire wheel.

 

Here's a video by out transmission guru, Stevasaurus.  

While the bearing arbors he now has look great, you can use sockets as arbors to remove and install bearings

 

You can buy your bearings and seals from a any bearing supply  house, or get the from one of our vendors   https://wheelhorsepartsandmore.com/product-category/manual-transmissions/

 

[Charrie 19]

Thanks for the replies. I noticed that this thread is double posted and there are several replies over in the other duplicate thread. Maybe a moderator can fix this? 

 

The videos will be very helpful, thanks. I watched a short video the other day where the the transaxle was split to replace some bad gears. It looked pretty simple as long as I have a good clean work space and track all the parts as i take it apart. 

 

When i replaced the 520h seal, I remember reading about checking the play in the bearings. I will be checking this 416 like you recommend. Everything was very stiff until after I put the motor oil in and started turning things. A local independent grocery store went out of business a couple of years ago and i bought nearly a case of their store brand motor oil for $2 a qt. I just dumped it in the transaxle for now thinking it might help keep things from rusting more till I can flush it properly or split it. I am guessing there was almost 2 qts of water in there. Today I dumped the oil/water into a clear 3gal jug and will  see how much separates. 

 

 I will go out and turn the wheels being sure to pay close attention to how it feels and what noise I hear. I did this today  but just briefly and everything seemed ok. I did notice that the High/Low selector seems to be a little off center. Where the shifter comes through the cover plate with the slot in it,when in low gear there is about an inch of space left before the shifter rod would hit the plate on the left side. Shifting from Low to Neutral there is only about an inch left from the right side of the plate. When shifting to High, the shifter rod hits the right side of the slot in the plate. So that is as far as it can go to the right. It feels like it is fully engaged but i do not know. perhaps there is an adjustment or the rod could be bent? 

 

I have an SKF 11124 seal that I bought for the left side of my 520 but it hasn't started leaking yet. I saved the old seal from the RT side and remember now that the metal sleeve part of the seal is around 1/2" thick and the replacement is only half of that. Seems I remember reading something about that here in the forum when I changed it a couple of years ago. If I remember correctly, I drove the seal in a little so that the rubber lip would ride on a new area on the axle shaft.  

 

The mower deck is a 48" and appears to be the same as the deck  on my 520? Haven't taken the deck off yet but the top appears to be in great shape and still has the bolt on deflector guard. 

 

I should probably check the compression on the engine and see if I can get it to start. All I know is the PO said he bought new points and coil but couldn't get it to start. Was running at the end of the last season that he used it. Maybe be something simple. Are there some procedures I should do before attempting to start the engine? 

1- Of course change the oil first.

2- Maybe take out the sparkplug and put in a little trans fluid and let it soak a couple of days? 

3- I could take the valve cover off and see if the valves are moving but then the gasket would probably start leaking? 

4- Ah, there is trash in the fuel tank and the bottom of the gauge has a little rust. Clean the fuel system.

5- Make sure the fuel pump is pumping? Seems i read somewhere that one can rebuild the pump with a new diaphragm?  

 

If I just flush the transmission and everything seems smooth, Is there a chance I could cause major damage in the long run? I know that is hard to answer. Thinking it would probably be some time before I would be in the position to split the transmission. 

 

Thanks

[Charrie 19]

Oh, where is a good place to buy points, condenser, and fuel pump?

Also I guess I need to remove the bowl from the carb and see what it looks like in there. Do you guys recommend rebuilding or replacing the carb when needed?  

[Charrie 19]

 

 

Thanks for the replies. I noticed that this thread is double posted and there are several replies over in the other duplicate thread. Maybe a moderator can fix this? 

I posted this reply over in the other thread. 

 

First though, I just looked at the dip stick and for the most part it is in great shape except in one spot. About 2 inches up from the tip is a little light pitting continuing up for about another 2 inches. Not all of that 2" is pitted, some just a little discolored. After that it is clean and new looking like the bottom 2 inches. The pitting is very mild and i don't remember if I the dip stick was rusty and I wiped it off the first time I looked at it or not. I did not do anything extra to clean it other then wipe it off.

 

The small engines were the older briggs push mower engines  that only have a handful of parts! 

 

Maybe for now I could flush the transmission and then work on starting the engine so I can asses the general condition? 

 

Also I am thinking to keep my 520h as my main mower and use te 416-8 as the work tractor around the property? I needed new tires as none of the tires on the 416 will hold air. I picked up 2 new R4 tread tires for the rear for $100. They are 23 x 8.5 x 12 which is the same size that are on there now. Probably should have ask about that tread here before buying them. Front tires, I found a set of 2  new 16 x 6.50 x 8 4ply china standard tread for the front for $40 for both at a tire shop. Qing DA brand if anyone has ever heard of them. I haven't bought them yet. 

 

 

The videos will be very helpful, thanks. I watched a short video the other day where the the transaxle was split to replace some bad gears. It looked pretty simple as long as I have a good clean work space and track all the parts as i take it apart. 

 

When i replaced the 520h seal, I remember reading about checking the play in the bearings. I will be checking this 416 like you recommend. Everything was very stiff until after I put the motor oil in and started turning things. A local independent grocery store went out of business a couple of years ago and i bought nearly a case of their store brand motor oil for $2 a qt. I just dumped it in the transaxle for now thinking it might help keep things from rusting more till I can flush it properly or split it. I am guessing there was almost 2 qts of water in there. Today I dumped the oil/water into a clear 3gal jug and will  see how much separates. 

 

 I will go out and turn the wheels being sure to pay close attention to how it feels and what noise I hear. I did this today  but just briefly and everything seemed ok. I did notice that the High/Low selector seems to be a little off center. Where the shifter comes through the cover plate with the slot in it,when in low gear there is about an inch of space left before the shifter rod would hit the plate on the left side. Shifting from Low to Neutral there is only about an inch left from the right side of the plate. When shifting to High, the shifter rod hits the right side of the slot in the plate. So that is as far as it can go to the right. It feels like it is fully engaged but i do not know. perhaps there is an adjustment or the rod could be bent? 

 

I have an SKF 11124 seal that I bought for the left side of my 520 but it hasn't started leaking yet. I saved the old seal from the RT side and remember now that the metal sleeve part of the seal is around 1/2" thick and the replacement is only half of that. Seems I remember reading something about that here in the forum when I changed it a couple of years ago. If I remember correctly, I drove the seal in a little so that the rubber lip would ride on a new area on the axle shaft.  

 

The mower deck is a 48" and appears to be the same as the deck  on my 520? Haven't taken the deck off yet but the top appears to be in great shape and still has the bolt on deflector guard. 

 

I should probably check the compression on the engine and see if I can get it to start. All I know is the PO said he bought new points and coil but couldn't get it to start. Was running at the end of the last season that he used it. Maybe be something simple. Are there some procedures I should do before attempting to start the engine? 

1- Of course change the oil first.

2- Maybe take out the sparkplug and put in a little trans fluid and let it soak a couple of days? 

3- I could take the valve cover off and see if the valves are moving but then the gasket would probably start leaking? 

4- Ah, there is trash in the fuel tank and the bottom of the gauge has a little rust. Clean the fuel system.

5- Make sure the fuel pump is pumping? Seems i read somewhere that one can rebuild the pump with a new diaphragm?  

 

If I just flush the transmission and everything seems smooth, Is there a chance I could cause major damage in the long run? I know that is hard to answer. Thinking it would probably be some time before I would be in the position to split the transmission. 

 

Thanks

 

I ask on the other thread about sourcing parts like points/condenser, carb kit, maybe fuel pump  or kit?