Car AC problem/symptom and question

[squonk 47,337]

1 hour ago, Blaine said:

I’ve seen the air side clogged, with about 2 pounds of dog hair… 

Leaves, twigs, nuts, dog food! 

[CasaytheMann 172]

I'm curious as to how they determined the evap coil was clogged??

Once low side refrigerant is blocked, or restricted, suction pressure drops. Once suction pressure drops, there is not as much refrigerant for the compressor to pump, and the high side pressure drops too.

[adsm08 4,775]

1 hour ago, Blaine said:

I’m still struggling to understand how anything would get inside the evaporator to clog it. 
 

 I just threw about 813 silica beads at this expansion valve and not one of them made it through. 
 

 

Those are much larger than what is found in AC desiccant bags. The particle size is closer to sand.

 

I have also flushed a fair amount of sand out of cooling systems in the last few years too.

Edited Thursday at 10:30 PM by adsm08

[Beap52 2,341]

It was the 4th compressor before we accepted and installed it on my pickup.  The man who does my AC work dumps the oil out of the compressor so he can be assured it's correct.  Two of the compressors had metal filings in them, one had already been opened (and possible installed due to dirt on fittings) He wasn't going to accept a compressor sitting unsealed on a shelf.  Finally the 4th  was acceptable to him but now, a couple of seasons later, it's clutch sounds loud to me.  These came from a local parts house. 

 

I would think with the technology and machining abilities now available that even overseas production would result in better parts. 

 

 

[adsm08 4,775]

9 minutes ago, Beap52 said:

I would think with the technology and machining abilities now available that even overseas production would result in better parts. 

 

It doesn't matter how good the tech is if you give it to a 5 year old and pay them 10 cents a day.

[Blaine 200]

They are from an A/C desiccant bag. 
 

i have a 2008 Edge with the 3.5L v6 in my bay right now for a power steering pump. I took these pictures of the expansion valve location. If you look at that area you should be able to see witness marks around the vicinity to know if they actually swapped it out. That nut should have fresh socket marks on it. 

 

 I don’t recall replacing one specifically on an Edge, but it’s deep in there, but it looks doable from the firewall side. Removing the plenum would make a lot more access room. 
 

 

[adsm08 4,775]

13 minutes ago, Blaine said:

I don’t recall replacing one specifically on an Edge, but it’s deep in there, but it looks doable from the firewall side.

 

It is. Pull the intake and you have more room than you know what to do with.

 

All the known drier failures I have ever seen put a sand-like material through the system.

Edited Thursday at 11:38 PM by adsm08

[adsm08 4,775]

2 hours ago, CasaytheMann said:

 

Once low side refrigerant is blocked, or restricted, suction pressure drops. Once suction pressure drops, there is not as much refrigerant for the compressor to pump, and the high side pressure drops too.

 

No, not quite.

 

You are correct up to the very last part. Once all the refrigerant is stuck on the high side, between the compressor and the restriction the high side pressure has exceeded the safety limit and if it doesn't blow of the safety release the computer shuts the compressor off. The pressure at that time is usually between 350 and 400 PSI.

Edited Thursday at 11:42 PM by adsm08

[wh500special 2,425]

I didn’t ask for a ton of detail when I spoke with the shop, but what I remember he told me was that they initially ran the car and checked pressures.  Was very high on high side with compressor running and very low on low side.   And the pressure switch would then shut it down.  I saw the same thing at home a while ago but it was much cooler and apparently it was a little less clogged at the time and was still circulating a little.  It had gone to nothing since.
 

He suspected either a bad valve ( which I asked him to go ahead and replace since it was cheapish) or something blocking flow in evaporator. 
 

talked to him later in day and they had cracked it open and took out old valve.  I don’t remember what else. Indicated that they tried to blow compressed air through evaporator and not much was getting through and that some gunk and dye was coming out. They were going to tinker with it a bit and see what happened. 
 

later they called and asked if I needed the car back right away.  I didn’t.  They’d gotten stuff out of the evaporator thought it was probably still clogged at least somewhat and were going to let it hang on vacuum a few hours in the morning then put gas back in it.  He didn’t seem optimistic, but they needed to close it up anyway so it didn’t hurt to try.  
 

next day they did a what they said, found it still didn’t work (no huge surprise but I was hoping…) and asked if I wanted to go further. I don’t.  He said the book says it’s 6 hours to remove the dashboard and thought it probably takes every bit of that at least. 
 

I mentioned the dessicant filter rupturing and he said, “yep.”

 

this is a great shop. Full confidence in just dropping off a car and having them do their thing.  They mostly work on Mercedes, BMW, Audi, and VW but not exclusively.   They spent a lot of extra time dinking around on my air conditioner and only charged me about $300.  Plus the axle shaft job ftom one of those speed sensor rings that broke and lit the ABS lamp.  
 

I would have ignored it, but the pedal was pulsing on almost every stop so it needed to be done.   Now I just wait for the other side to break.  
 

There are other takeaways here of course, but a notable one is that @adsm08 is our resident Ford go-to.   A while back I recall him commenting about some weird split fuel sender issue on a Ford that had befuddled mechanics.   
 

Thanks for all the input!

Steve
 

 

[Blaine 200]

I worked at a Ford dealership way back when there slogan was “Quality is Job One”. Apparently that has changed. 

[adsm08 4,775]

13 hours ago, wh500special said:

 @adsm08 is our resident Ford go-to.

 

 

I don't claim to know everything, but I've been with Ford for 20 years, 10 of them as a Senior Master tech.

[Blaine 200]

 I’ve been wrenching professionally since the 80’s. I left Ford in 97. I was the only one that could read a schematic and got all warranty work after the others slurped all the gravy customer pay off of the ticket. Been with an independent ever since. 
 

 So we have the joy of working on everything. Very little gets turned away. I’ve seen a lot over the past 4 decades. Unfortunately, since all cars have started to all look the same to me, i can’t recall who does what for many things, i just know it when i see it. 
 

 Things that seemed like a great trouble-free way of doing it gets replaced by not so great ideas. I still attend training when something worthy comes around, and i read a lot to stay up to date or learn about something new to me in my bay when needed. 
 

 We see a lot of F series and Explorers, and a few Escapes, but i’ve never come across this exploding bag of sand issue yet. Definitely will keep it in mind. I cut open another dryer, can’t remember what it was for, but the new condenser came with one so it wasn’t needed but they included it as a kit. It has the same larger size of desiccant, like I’ve always seen. 
 

 

[wh500special 2,425]

11 hours ago, Blaine said:

I worked at a Ford dealership way back when there slogan was “Quality is Job One”. Apparently that has changed. 

I think the auto industry is a miracle.  They crank out incredibly complex machines with thousands of parts, miles of wiring, and multiple computers that have to start and operate from -40 in International Falls, MN in the dead it winter to 125F in Death Valley in the middle of August.  They get wet, hot, cold, humid, dry, neglected, vibrated, impacted, and abused and they usually start up and get us where we’re going.  And then center though they certainly aren’t free, many of them are an incredible value considering what’s under the skin. 

 

I think Ford still does a good job.  They’ve been getting a lot of heat for the numbers of recalls they’ve had but these things happen when you’re stamping out cars so quickly.  I have no idea what any particular automaker does to test a new design before production, but I can only assume from an engineering perspective it’s quite intense.  At the scale they manufacture, statistical anomalies catch up with them all the time. 
 

this car is 16 years old.  It only has about 100k on it but I really don’t know its history other than it was a local one-owner.  It probably had a lot of short trips.  And I do know it was wrecked on the passenger side and repaired.  I probably would have kept looking for a Toyota or Honda, but we got this thing pretty cheap and it was worth the roll of dice. 
 

At some point we’ll replace this with something else and send that with daughter to college in California.  It’s not looking like she needs a car this year, so we’ll wait.  I’ll poke around in her area when I’m next out there to see what sorts of independent shops there are to fix anything that crops up.  In the meantime I’m kind of enjoying the fact that she’s stuck driving something without AC.  We do not have pleasant summer weather here.  
 

I used to buy nothing but Fords, counting two Mercurys.  Was always satisfied. But I drifted away at some point to VW and now to Honda.  I don’t have a Honda obsession, but it looks that way from the outside.  Until I get burned that’s probably where I’ll stay.  Currently have a Honda Ridgeline (my second one of these), Passport (which replaced an Odyssey), push mower, two inverter generators, a power washer, a tiller, an outboard, and probabky something else I am forgetting.   So far, so good.  Just gas and maintenance.  

steve
 

[8ntruck 9,029]

@wh500special what kind of Honda outboard do you have?  I have a 20 horse that I am less than impressed with. 

 

It has hard cold starting issues and has eaten a water pump 2 years in a row - was pumping when I put it on the trailer for storage, but not when I put it in the water coming out of storage.

[squonk 47,337]

4 hours ago, Blaine said:

 I’ve been wrenching professionally since the 80’s. I left Ford in 97. I was the only one that could read a schematic and got all warranty work after the others slurped all the gravy customer pay off of the ticket. Been with an independent ever since. 
 

 So we have the joy of working on everything. Very little gets turned away. I’ve seen a lot over the past 4 decades. Unfortunately, since all cars have started to all look the same to me, i can’t recall who does what for many things, i just know it when i see it. 
 

 Things that seemed like a great trouble-free way of doing it gets replaced by not so great ideas. I still attend training when something worthy comes around, and i read a lot to stay up to date or learn about something new to me in my bay when needed. 
 

 We see a lot of F series and Explorers, and a few Escapes, but i’ve never come across this exploding bag of sand issue yet. Definitely will keep it in mind. I cut open another dryer, can’t remember what it was for, but the new condenser came with one so it wasn’t needed but they included it as a kit. It has the same larger size of desiccant, like I’ve always seen. 
 

 

I started  in the automotive repair world in 79 but was doing some of it before that. Went to College for it but got tired of the flat rate / Brown noser getting the gravy jobs and got into the parts side of it for 10 years. Built Ford accumalators for a summer. and never saw an exploding dessicant bag. Ran my own AC shop for a few years but it's tough to be a one man gang changing evaporators  on almost every car that came in. Got into industrial mechanics 20 years ago and am retiring on the 30th of July.

[Blaine 200]

2 hours ago, wh500special said:

I think the auto industry is a miracle….

 

I used to buy nothing but Fords, counting two Mercurys.  Was always satisfied. But I drifted away at some point to Honda. 
 

 
 I see vehicles of practically all makes and models in their “time of need” daily, so my opinions are probably somewhat biased. You can’t go wrong with a Honda or a Toyota though.  

[MainelyWheelhorse 2,842]

2 hours ago, Blaine said:

 
 I see vehicles of practically all makes and models in their “time of need” daily, so my opinions are probably somewhat biased. You can’t go wrong with a Honda or a Toyota though.  

My mother has a 2013 Honda Pilot that’s closing in on or possibly over by now 200,000 miles. It’s still going strong. A timing belt gets changed every 100,000 miles and the other various consumables along the way with no big issues yet.

[wh500special 2,425]

5 hours ago, 8ntruck said:

@wh500special what kind of Honda outboard do you have?  I have a 20 horse that I am less than impressed with. 

 

It has hard cold starting issues and has eaten a water pump 2 years in a row - was pumping when I put it on the trailer for storage, but not when I put it in the water coming out of storage.

Mine is a 90 hp.  I think it’s a 2002.  Carbureted (four of them!) four cylinder with tiller steering.  Starts easy every time, but does require choke the first start of the day Which I guess isn’t a surprise. 
 

I remember you posting about your 20 last year. 
 

Did you replace just the impeller or did you do the whole setup?  If it was just the impeller maybe there is something misshapen or worn in the housing or on the plate under the impeller.   Any chance you dock it in shallow, sandy bottom?  
 

My cousin had a Mercury motor that was hard starting but otherwise ran great once fired up.  He had it tinkered with repeatedly and nothing fixed it.  Carbs, plugs, etc.  This went on for years. Eventually the fuel lift pump failed and when replaced the hard starting issue went away completely.  Hopefully it’s something simple and cheap like that. 
 

My motor has been exceptional.  My boat was previously owned by a guide in northern Wisconsin and I bought it from him in 2018.  When I picked it up we talked about maintenance and whatnot.  He wasn’t super obsessive with maintenance. Said oil change every year.  He didn’t remember when the waterpump

had last been changed and confirmed the timing belt had never been touched.  
 

He guessed it had 800 hours on it.  I bet it’s more.  The boat was 15 years old when I got it and he had only a small transom trolling motor on it.  No bowmount.  He said he back trolled most of the time.  From what I can see from his current postings for his guide service he’s fishing every day through the three month summer and less frequently until ice up.  So I bet the hours on this thing are really at least 1500. 

I trolled crankbaits with it today for about three hours, so I’m getting some time on it periodically too. But nothing like he did. 

 

I still haven’t changed the water pump so it is way way way way way past due.  At least 9 years old.  I bought one in June and will do it at some point over the summer.  Mine is a a year where they transitioned ftom one gearcase to another so there’s a chance I got the wrong parts.  
 

Honda outboards have a great general reputation but have two drawbacks in my opinion.  First, there aren’t very many dealers so service isn’t as available in most areas like it is for other brands…especially Mercury.  This is a problem for getting maintenance parts.   Second, Honda is clinging to carburetors on everything 30 hp and below.  Other makers have fuel injection down to at least 9.9 hp. 

 

Fuel injection is one of those things that is under appreciated.
 

The BF20 has a great reputation amoung a number of guide services in the Boundary Waters of Minnesota.   The Honda 20 has apparently more umph than other 20s and is still reasonably light.  I’m sure that’s changing. 
 

All that said, I just bought a 25 hp Suzuki and if I was looking for another motor I’d give them a hard look.  They’ve garnered a great reliability reputation, have a decent dealer network, and are value-priced. 
 

Suzuki parts don’t seem to be badly priced either.  I ordered some random things recently and don’t recall any sticker shock.  
 

FWIW, the 9.9-20 hp Zukes are all the same motor differentiated merely by different ECU programming for the timing and fuel injection. The 9.9 also has a restrictor at the throttle body that is removed on the 15 and 20.  This is handly as people have realized they can get 20hp from a 9.9 with minimal investment by just changing the ECU ($500) and removing the restrictor. They use these on horsepower limited lakes.  
 

Same thing goes for the 25/30.  Different ECU and a $5 gasket in lieu of the restrictor.  Larger engines differ just in programming with no physical differences within a power class (this is not unique to Suzuki).
 

believe it or not, there are places that offer tunes as well.  They claim 25hp from the 9.9-20 and 35 from the 25/30.  If you’re so inclined. 
 

Anyway, I really like my Honda 90.  I’d get another without hesitation.  I’d like to find a nice 9.9 to use as a kicker since the 8hp Yamaha I use doesn’t match and it drives me a bit crazy, but if it was a standalone I’d be looking at Suzuki. 
 

FWIW, that 8hp Yammie is a bit cold blooded and apparently that’s typical.  It can take a lot of pulls to fire it up first time on a cold day.  It’s also a bit loud compared to the Hondas.  But it’s a nice motor…just the wrong shade of gray. 
 

Steve

Edited 12 minutes ago by wh500special