Go Fast ...

[WHX?? 54,269]

In reverse ... Guy was asking for help the other day on slow reverse on a hydro.  and @Racinbob commented that horses are not supposed to go fast in reverse. Designed that way for safety reasons I suspect. Some new machines including late model Toro verticals had a key switch under the seat with a light on the dash for reverse operation when the blades were spinning. 

So this 520 FEL I have was always a slug in reverse. Didn't matter how the motion linkage (Matt's pedal kit)  was adjusted. Seemed like it took a hour to back away from the gravel pile. The other three 520's in my herd have this issue as well but not as severe and not as aggravating as they are all snow machines and don't see a lot of reverse time it seems.

Since it was in the shop for other work & maintenance something was gonna be done about it. 

Started by marking the full forward and full reverse positions of the motion lever on top of the hydro. To get the control plate to move the lever to go to full forward was obtainable  but only allowed a small amount of lever travel in reverse. 

The problem is the eccentric cam would bottom out in the control plate before the lever reached it's max reverse limit.  

Simple enough to elongate the reverse slot. Took a little more than 1/8" out was all that was needed. The motion lever now hits it's stops in both directions & a full cleaning & lubrication of all linkage makes for a very smooth pedal greasy Pete would be proud of. 

[Tonytoro416 1,305]

Going to have to take a closer look on the work 416. This may be the ticket for it also. Also has a pedal kit installed 

[JoeM 9,509]

5 hours ago, WHX?? said:

Took a little more than 1/8" out was all that was needed

Yep that works.

Just to elaborate on the hydro, the same internal parts that provide forward also are used in reverse. It just the cam ring directs the oil to either forward or reverse from the pump to the motor. It can actually run as fast in reverse as forward. 

 

[squonk 45,269]

I've seen the cam itself wear a groove in it causing the same issue. Not enough pushin for the cushion! 

[Racinbob 12,587]

7 hours ago, WHX?? said:

In reverse ... Guy was asking for help the other day on slow reverse on a hydro.  and @Racinbob commented that horses are not supposed to go fast in reverse.

 

Actually what I was referring to was the lever movement to get it to reverse. Basically the neutral stop. It's no secret that I'm not a hydro fan in any way but that movement drove me nuts. My wife said it really didn't bother her. I did this modification last summer to the 314-H. A mechanical stop on that bracket slot blocking the lever right at the neutral switch. From there it had to be pushed down to get to reverse. It wasn't a smooth movement from F to R. 

 

A little cutting did the trick.

 

My wife told me the movement didn't bother her but when I was done she said she really liked it.

 

As far as the reverse speed, I like the idea here. I would do it but this tractor will end up with a new owner this spring. 

 

 

[peter lena 9,680]

@WHX??  yup can fefinetly relate  , to  angularity  issues , that led me to  HEIM JOINTS LONG AGO  ?  BTW  would also do a WIRING  REROUTE ,  in the same area ?  separate  multiple issues , in the same zone ?  the  ANGULARITY  OF A HEIM JOINT  IS WITHOUT QUESTION ,  there is no hang up  spot  , what it does is  show you the way  . STOP !  take picture , or write down , what you were going to change / do , so you do not loose that thought , it happens !  that step up , slide / switch  area , ironically  , shows   the  UPCOMING   frayed wire set up , ?  have often used a light vinyl sleeve  on metal slide areas . repetitive issues  , are what you want  for  a refit / elimination  to a problem  ? my view ?  TAKE ADVANTAGE IF IT !  what if ?  what works ? what  repeats itself ? my repetitive problems are long gone , just my way of looking  at failure , no offence to  anyone , make it go away , pete      

[WHX?? 54,269]

10 hours ago, Tonytoro416 said:

closer look on the work 416.

Here  is another improvement Tony.

The spacer at the front part of the control rod has a short, maybe 3/8".  I replaced it with a longer one maybe 3/4" that was just hanging out in my spacer drawer. It allowed for more a strait pull on the cam plate making things smoother. The rod comes really close to hitting the hydro top motion lever in full reverse & this gives more clearance. 

 

Pat attention to the brake return to neutral linkage for binding & lubricate. Not sure what kind of lube is appropriate maybe greasy Pete can chime in. I used a "dry" lube in hopes that it wouldn't attract dirt much like a starter bendix.

 

The adjustment of the heim joints is critical. Even one or two turns can change things up. Fine tuning is required between here and the eccentric cam. Mark the eccentric cam so you have a good baseline to where things are at in adjusting. Remove the return to neutral spring temporarily makes adjusting much easier. Don't forget to jack up the rear when adjusting neutral under power. 

 

@cleat and the manual says no lube on the cam plate but check the pivot bushing for burrs and wear. Same with the eccentric cam. I see @76c12091520h has replacement plates now. Don't know if he has the eccentrics. 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by WHX??
Fat Fingers

[pfrederi 19,701]

The original post in question was about an Electro12 with a sunstrand hydro.  You would have to redesign the plastic slider plate to get additional throw into reverse.  

Edited 1 hour ago by pfrederi

[ACman 7,686]

@Racinbob Bob did you leave a small detent at the neutral position ? Is this for motion control lever up by the steering wheel on the council or lover mounted on the side panel? I don’t know the 300 400 and 500 series very well as my 520 lever is up by the steering wheel. Ive never driven my tractors personally, but watching others it just seems like a pain in the butt having to push the lever down to go into reverse. Next question for everybody is there only one pedal kit for 3 , 4 and 500 series ? I’d love to add one of Matt‘s kits to my tractor and is a factory option pedal kit pretty much the same as Matt’s and Matt just improved on it ? Is the slot above the pivot hole just to adjust the tension on the plate ? My next question would be could you make the slots longer on the reverse side or even the side to increase speed or does the lever and the pump itself hit something else so you can’t make it go faster in reverse ? Does the HD just have a different Cam Hydro speed control plate or do they run a different gear ? Would be nice to get a little more speed for cruising.

[WHX?? 54,269]

29 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

redesign the plastic slider plate

That might be next ...  but yeah sunnies are their own breed. Funny thing with them, mine anyway, some are speedsters forward and reverse. Some are snails both ways. Even with a new plate and adjusted.  Never looked into it but guessed it may be fluid related or just wear & tear on the internals. 

[pfrederi 19,701]

2 minutes ago, WHX?? said:

That might be next ...  but yeah sunnies are their own breed. Funny thing with them, mine anyway, some are speedsters forward and reverse. Some are snails both ways. Even with a new plate and adjusted.  Never looked into it but guessed it may be fluid related or just wear & tear on the internals. 

 With 3-D printers it might be doable....but not by me

[Racinbob 12,587]

17 minutes ago, ACman said:

@Racinbob Bob did you leave a small detent at the neutral position ? Is this for motion control lever up by the steering wheel on the council or lover mounted on the side panel? I don’t know the 300 400 and 500 series very well as my 520 lever is up by the steering wheel. Ive never driven my tractors personally, but watching others it just seems like a pain in the butt having to push the lever down to go into reverse. Next question for everybody is there only one pedal kit for 3 , 4 and 500 series ? I’d love to add one of Matt‘s kits to my tractor and is a factory option pedal kit pretty much the same as Matt’s and Matt just improved on it ? Is the slot above the pivot hole just to adjust the tension on the plate ? My next question would be could you make the slots longer on the reverse side or even the side to increase speed or does the lever and the pump itself hit something else so you can’t make it go faster in reverse ? Does the HD just have a different Cam Hydro speed control plate or do they run a different gear ? Would be nice to get a little more speed for cruising.

 

No I didn't Jeff. Depressing the brake returns it there. That's not a bad idea though. Something to give a little feel in neutral. This is on a 314-H with the column mount lever. 

I can't help you on the other questions. I don't know all that much about hydros. 

[Bill D 2,568]

4 hours ago, Racinbob said:

 

Actually what I was referring to was the lever movement to get it to reverse. Basically the neutral stop. It's no secret that I'm not a hydro fan in any way but that movement drove me nuts. My wife said it really didn't bother her. I did this modification last summer to the 314-H. A mechanical stop on that bracket slot blocking the lever right at the neutral switch. From there it had to be pushed down to get to reverse. It wasn't a smooth movement from F to R. 

 

A little cutting did the trick.

 

My wife told me the movement didn't bother her but when I was done she said she really liked it.

 

As far as the reverse speed, I like the idea here. I would do it but this tractor will end up with a new owner this spring. 

 

 

I think you should consider adding a foot pedal control in place of the hand control.   I never liked hydros until I  built a foot pedal control for them.  Now I  have more hydros than 8 speeds.

[Racinbob 12,587]

6 minutes ago, Bill D said:

I think you should consider adding a foot pedal control in place of the hand control.   I never liked hydros until I  built a foot pedal control for them.  Now I  have more hydros than 8 speeds.

 

I would if I was keeping the tractor. I had a foot control hydro on a junk deer when we first moved to Florida. Definitely better than a hand control.

[peter lena 9,680]

@Racinbob   lots of those , TEFLON  washers  in H/W  store pullout drawer section , also like  super lube  hydraulic  lubricant  , in tough areas ,   comes in both liquid /  oil form , paste incredible  operational  temp range , hot / cold , once I find a fix / cure , I ENHANCE IT.  especially  like that on a  chronic  issue . something that  you have regularly  dealt with .