IndyCar Hybrid Yes or No?

[JoeM 8,100]

For those that don't follow this is a nut shell explanation. 

The IndyCar hybrid engine combines a traditional 2.2-liter twin-turbo V6 engine with a hybrid system that includes a Motor Generator Unit (MGU) and an Energy Storage System (ESS) using ultracapacitors. This setup allows for energy recovery during braking and provides additional horsepower, enhancing race strategy and performance.

 

[Treepep 651]

 

 

Already fasty fast.  Electric only would likely be faster till it stopped like my lithium drill.   roooom er done with no notice. 

 

Gas will end in my lifetime.  Or a new version of combustible liquid 

[953 nut 58,942]

In my opinion most of the talk about electric vehicle racing is just political correctness and has no organic growth to fill a need.  Considering the difficulty firefighters have extinguishing "E"car battery fires and the added weight of battery packs on racecars that are as light as possible I don't think there will be any rush to implement this. 

[SylvanLakeWH 27,974]

Interesting topic... I am curious to see how ev's fair in the post government incentive world... I think they are here to stay, but only as a niche market. I continue to think that they missed the boat when they went all in on ev's. Most 2+ car families could absolutely benefit from a low cost (eg Bolt) style around town vehicle while still having a gasser with no range anxiety...

 

Racing? I tend to agree with @953 nut,but... live 2 miles from a track. I can hear the cars on Saturdays... the neighbors are facing very loud conditions... they are building a high end electric go kart track that will be open to the public and will not have the noise... perhaps part of a solution in some instances... 

Edited May 27 by SylvanLakeWH

[Handy Don 13,560]

2 hours ago, SylvanLakeWH said:

high end electric go kart track that will be open to the public and will not have the noise... perhaps part of a solution in some instances..

Tangent warning....

We had two F-14s loop directly over our house 8 or 10 times on Sunday at about 2,500 feet--part of an event at the West Point Military Academy. Talk about noise!

[Achto 29,167]

3 hours ago, SylvanLakeWH said:

Racing? I tend to agree with @953 nut,but... live 2 miles from the M-1 Concourse track in Pontiac. I can hear the cars on Saturdays... the neighbors are facing very loud conditions

 

Only question I have in said situations. Who was there first?? The stock car track in Oshkosh was shut down due to noise complaints. When the new fair grounds was built, including the race track there wasn't a house for a mile in any direction. Now the grounds is completely surrounded by houses. Don't build or by next to a race track or air port if you don't want the noise. Don't buy or build next to a farm if you don't want the smell. 

 

As far as the cars, gas or electric don't matter too much to me. If they get too fast rules are implemented to slow them down either way. Fire danger with the batteries could be a big deciding factor.

 

Note: Electric cars have no soul. 

[pfrederi 18,518]

1 hour ago, Handy Don said:

Tangent warning....

We had two F-14s loop directly over our house 8 or 10 times on Sunday at about 2,500 feet--part of an event at the West Point Military Academy. Talk about noise!

 

 

It is the sound of Freedom...

[SylvanLakeWH 27,974]

8 hours ago, Achto said:

Only question I have in said situations. Who was there first??

In this case the residential neighborhood grew up with a factory on the site... The track was built on the demolished GM factory site. The neighborhood was built in the 20's - 50's.

Edited May 27 by SylvanLakeWH

[8ntruck 7,570]

There is an electric open wheel road race series that has been going for several years.   Kind of bills itself as the electric F1.  I've stumbled across a couple of broadcasts.  Instead of recharging the batteries at a pit stop, the driver jumps into another, fully charged car.  And, @Achto is right - the cars seem soulless.

 

As far as electric or hybrid cars in racing series go, they are somewhat of a political statement, probably trying to use the old "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" advertising stick.  There is some value to using racing as a laboratory for developing components for electric cars, but most of the race car technology is not directly transferable to street cars.

 

My wife and I could easily use an electric car for everyday use.  However, it would not  work for our travel needs.  Yesterday, we drove 700 miles with a trailer - a trip I don't think any of the current production electric vehichicles can make.  Additionally, we won't consider an electric vehicle for local use until the price comes down.

[Achto 29,167]

1 hour ago, 8ntruck said:

Yesterday, we drove 700 miles with a trailer

 

With an EV truck this trip would had to include six 30 to 40 min stops to recharge. Depending on the weight being towed. Most average about 100 miles on a charge pulling a heavy load. $13 to $15 each charge. So only $90ish in fuel (charging) + 4hrs of down time waiting to charge. 

 

My Ram usually gets around 14mpg towing, 700miles would have cost me about $150 in fuel with 2 stops equaling about 30min down time.

 

Like you said EV's have their place, towing long distance just ain't it.

Edited May 26 by Achto

[Racinbob 11,867]

4 hours ago, pfrederi said:

 

 

It is the sound of Freedom...

The first house we had when we moved back from Florida was apparently on a 'practice' flightline for whatever military aircraft were going to do the flyover at the Notre Dame home game that weekend. Be it jets, bombers, cargo craft, they were low going over the house. They went over probably 20 times or so every game. I would sit on the deck and enjoy every one of them. 

Edited May 26 by Racinbob

[8ntruck 7,570]

8 hours ago, pfrederi said:

 

 

It is the sound of Freedom...

My oldest sister used to live pretty much in line from an Air Force runway at a B52 base in Texas.  They were close enough that their house shook and there was a noticeable shadow as the planes went over.

[Handy Don 13,560]

20 hours ago, Achto said:

With an EV truck this trip would had to include six 30 to 40 min stops to recharge. Depending on the weight being towed. Most average about 100 miles on a charge pulling a heavy load. $13 to $15 each charge. So only $90ish in fuel (charging) + 4hrs of down time waiting to charge. 

My Ram usually gets around 14mpg towing, 700miles would have cost me about $150 in fuel with 2 stops equaling about 30min down time.

Like you said EV's have their place, towing long distance just ain't it.

Mounting soapbox...

I recognize the disparity for sure, but it is, in part, because of our habits and expectations.

EVs are a different animal than ICEs and yes, IMHO, the fuel density challenge is years away from “parity". 

That said, the effects of ICE vehicle pollution are undeniable but not yet directly paid for by drivers, skewing the comparison. 

How many “towing” vehicles are driven 10-15,000 miles per year at sub-20 mpg consumption but are justified because of occasional long tows or heavy loads?

I am encouraged to see RV trailer makers adding batteries and motors to trailers which let them "carry their own weight” for ranges up to 300+ miles and let them be hauled with lighter vehicles. This trend could, with some incentives, be brought to smaller utility trailers.

Another option would be a supplemental battery carried in the tow vehicle only when needed--perhaps even rented like a U-Haul!

Either of these could lead to a 700 mile tow of 3,000 lbs needing only two charging stops. 

Stepping down...

Edited May 27 by Handy Don

[SylvanLakeWH 27,974]

15 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

That said, the effects of ICE vehicle pollution are undeniable but not yet directly paid for by drivers, skewing the comparison. 

While I agree, the exact same can be said for ev's. Road taxes in most states are fuel based. The more you drive the more you pay. In Michigan, EV's pay a surcharge on registration fee, regardless of mikes driven. Not equitable. And batteries do not appear from rainbow dust and unicorn flatulence... they are toxic to make, charge and discard...

 

I'm not anti-EV. I own an EV WH and have had two others. All my lawn equipment is 20 v. But a true comparison between EV and ICE is far more complicated than what comes out the vehicles tailpipes...

 

On topic, I don't care what they put in race cars because I am not a fan. But if EV or hybrid makes them more money they will switch in a heartbeat...

 

[Beap52 1,301]

I would imagine Indycar will consider the safety issue with electric vehicles just like it does with fuel vehicle.  If/when the electric race cars are approved, then I would think they could compete. I'll bet there would be regulations to equalize electric motor output when competing against gasoline engine output.  It will be interesting to watch.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wh500special 2,256]

This thread appears to have immediately and predictably drifted from the initial topic into the merits and limitations of EVs.  Yet these are likely further from an EV than is a Toyota Prius or Ram Hemi E-torque and share almost nothing with roadgoing fuel savers. 
 

I didn’t do much research beyond what was posted, but it appears the Indy car hybrid is a hybrid with no batteries.  It recovers some (probably small) percentage of energy that would otherwise be wasted as heat, dumps it into capacitors, and allows the driver to put it back into propulsion on her whim. 
 

Clearly this isn’t about efficiency, it’s about speed and competitive edge.  As long as you’re not touching the charged up capacitors that are hidden inside the engine housing I’m not sure there is any real additional safety issue - fire or otherwise - to be figured out that isn’t eclipsed by the real threat of having a collision at 200+ mph. 
 

I don’t see a down side to this.  Racing is inherently a waste of energy and an environmental blight anyway, and this technology doesn’t even move the needle on that.  It doesn’t really make any kind of declaration about eco friendliness or persuasion.  It does, however, appear to introduce a new performance and competitive aspect to racing which might keep things interesting.
 

All this without removing the soul.  Seems like a technology to be embraced by race fans. 
 

Steve

[lynnmor 7,672]

12 hours ago, wh500special said:

This thread appears to have immediately and predictably drifted from the initial topic into the merits and limitations of EVs.  Yet these are likely further from an EV than is a Toyota Prius or Ram Hemi E-torque and share almost nothing with roadgoing fuel savers. 
 

I didn’t do much research beyond what was posted, but it appears the Indy car hybrid is a hybrid with no batteries.  It recovers some (probably small) percentage of energy that would otherwise be wasted as heat, dumps it into capacitors, and allows the driver to put it back into propulsion on her whim. 
 

Clearly this isn’t about efficiency, it’s about speed and competitive edge.  As long as you’re not touching the charged up capacitors that are hidden inside the engine housing I’m not sure there is any real additional safety issue - fire or otherwise - to be figured out that isn’t eclipsed by the real threat of having a collision at 200+ mph. 
 

I don’t see a down side to this.  Racing is inherently a waste of energy and an environmental blight anyway, and this technology doesn’t even move the needle on that.  It doesn’t really make any kind of declaration about eco friendliness or persuasion.  It does, however, appear to introduce a new performance and competitive aspect to racing which might keep things interesting.
 

All this without removing the soul.  Seems like a technology to be embraced by race fans. 
 

Steve

Yep, it ain't about batteries, here is some information about how it will work.