Kohler courage vs K/magnum series

[AHS 1,491]

Ok, im working on my late father in laws Troy bilt tractor w/ Courage 20hp, single cylinder, 597cc. I did an oil and filter change, spark plug and air filter change. I know, kohler was getting cheap and they wanted to makes an engine for Troy bilt, husquvarna and any other brand of tractors. Horizontal and vertical shaft. OHV  vs flat head. Cast iron vs aluminum (i guess?). I mean the 14hp K321 (512cc) would be the only compatible engine. I mean my B80 (312cc) would plow the driveway and runs circles around that Troy bilt!. Compare them; i guess. It’s like comparing an orange to a bowling ball i guess!!

[ebinmaine 70,849]

🎳   -  🍊 

 

😅

[AHS 1,491]

[Achto 28,812]

In 2020 I picked up a Toro riding mower off the curb for free. Nice looking tractor with a 20hp Kohler single in it. Hooked a battery up to find that it had low hours , pulled the dip stick to find it had no oil,  put oil in it and ended up with a puddle of oil on my foot & floor.  Well now we know why it was free.  

 

Broken rod, ?? Nope turns over, has compression. Found the crack in the crank case near a mounting ear, apparently the casting is so thin in that area that they are prone to stress cracking.

 

Replaced the engine with a brand new 19hp Poulan Pro labeled Loncin engine. Literally plug & play installation. Sent it down the road for a few $ profit, still see it out doing it's job with the new owner from time to time 

Edited March 21 by Achto

[953 nut 58,077]

This is not exclusive to the Kohler Command.

In 2010, multiple lawsuits alleging misleading horsepower labeling on lawnmower engines were settled, with Briggs & Stratton agreeing to a $51 million fund to cover consumer claims for mowers purchased between 1994 and the settlement's finalization. 

 

Here's a more detailed breakdown:

• The Lawsuits:

  The lawsuits claimed that manufacturers of lawnmower engines and OEMs (original equipment manufacturers) engaged in a conspiracy to inflate prices by manipulating horsepower ratings. 

   
• The Allegations:

  Plaintiffs argued that consumers believed higher horsepower meant better performance, leading to higher prices for mowers with inflated horsepower ratings. 

   
• The Defendants:

  The defendants included manufacturers of lawnmower engines (Briggs & Stratton, Tecumseh Products, Kawasaki Motors, etc.), OEMs (Deere Co., MTD Products, Toro Co., etc.), and retailers like Sears. 

   
• The Settlement:

  Briggs & Stratton agreed to a $51 million settlement fund to cover consumer claims, with potential payments of up to $75 per consumer who purchased mowers with engines from the affected period. 

   
• Settlement Details:

  The settlement covered engines made by Briggs & Stratton, John Deere, Sears Roebuck, Toro, Electrolux Home Products, and Tecumseh Products. 

   
• Class Action:

  The lawsuits were class action lawsuits, meaning they represented a large group of consumers. 

   
• Settlement Timeline

  The claims process concluded on May 22, 2019, and individuals and businesses who made successful claims received their cheques in May and July 2020

[AHS 1,491]

@Achto…yes sir. I have had a 01 312 w/ 12.5  command hozontal shaft…. Snowblowing with the Command, down by the road i thought i was going to blow it up! But she survived! I sold the command as a lawn mower… and it’s still surviving 24 years later! Command is a MUCH bigger brother to the courage!!

[AHS 1,491]

Yes!!!! @953 nut. I wouldn’t want to torque that courage at all!! The courage “feels like it has” 12hp. You can torque down a    K/Magnum all day long!!

[kpinnc 13,831]

If you open that Courage engine up you will find several plastic gears. I mean the camshaft gear...

 

The last "decent" Kohler engines were the Command line, and even they were nowhere near as rugged or dependable as the K series and Magnums. 

 

I've seen comments in lawn care forums referring to them as "you have to have courage to use one", and that says enough... 

[TonyToro Jr. 1,780]

58 minutes ago, kpinnc said:

 

 

I've seen comments in lawn care forums referring to them as "you have to have courage to use one", and that says enough... 

Or as Taryl says “It doesn’t have enough courage to stay running” 

[RED-Z06 2,480]

Courage 19hp had its issues early on, the upper closure plate bolts were not torqued properly new, they would back out, and the dowel pins would beat up the block until it cracked.  Ive never seen one fail due to the plastic cam gears.  The most common failure was the 1st generation anti'vibration mechanism, it would come loose and knock the back of the block out.

 

But the thing is, the market demanded these engines exist.

 

People needed a basic mower that could pull a 42, 44, 46" deck, and mow an acre...for under 1200 dollars.  Briggs had their 13-21hp singles, but Kohler only had the Command single which was considered commercial grade, price reflected that at about $1400 engine only.  If they put out a 2500 dollar basic rider, with a commercial engine, when the one next to it is identical besides a briggs...at half the price, guess which one sells?

 

[kpinnc 13,831]

8 minutes ago, RED-Z06 said:

But the thing is, the market demanded these engines exist.

 

While I agree, Kohler didn't have to make ALL of thier engines like this. Nothing they make is anywhere close to commercial grade anymore. Even Briggs has a heavier-duty line with the Vanguard. Still nowhere close to an old Kohler, but better than standard. 

 

Correction: I see some versions of the Command engines are still available. But the cheapest Briggs are still better than Courage. 

Edited March 22 by kpinnc

[RED-Z06 2,480]

9 minutes ago, kpinnc said:

 

While I agree, Kohler didn't have to make ALL of thier engines like this. Nothing they make is anywhere close to commercial grade anymore. Even Briggs has a heavier-duty line with the Vanguard. Still nowhere close to an old Kohler, but better than standard. 

 

Correction: I see some versions of the Command engines are still available. But the cheapest Briggs are still better than Courage. 

Many "Vanguard" branded engines are Chinese, mainly their single cylinder engines.  The Twins used to be made in Japan and were among the finest engines made, but the Small and Big Block vanguards are made in America now and quality has definitely slipped, the Big Blocks have rod chucking problems, the small blocks arent lasting 3000+ hours like their Japanese ancestors regularly did.

 

I'd take a Command over anything Briggs right now, and Kawasaki...id avoid anything that doesn't start with FD.

[RED-Z06 2,480]

No engines made today are all that great, not compared to the mid 2000s, blame emissions regulations, blame rising costs, blame buyers demanding lower pricing...many things contribute to lower quality.

[kpinnc 13,831]

7 minutes ago, RED-Z06 said:

No engines made today are all that great, not compared to the mid 2000s, blame emissions regulations, blame rising costs, blame buyers demanding lower pricing...many things contribute to lower quality.

 

Agreed. 

[AHS 1,491]

7 hours ago, RED-Z06 said:

Many "Vanguard" branded engines are Chinese, mainly their single cylinder engines.  The Twins used to be made in Japan and were among the finest engines made, but the Small and Big Block vanguards are made in America now and quality has definitely slipped, the Big Blocks have rod chucking problems, the small blocks arent lasting 3000+ hours like their Japanese ancestors regularly did.

 

I'd take a Command over anything Briggs right now, and Kawasaki...id avoid anything that doesn't start with FD.

Yes! Weren’t the Chinese versions of the vanguard red in color on the engine tin? And the Japanese black? Or the other way around?

[Wild Bill 633 867]

FYI, Kohler used the Honda v-twin to design the Command. Honda warned Kohler to make sure the Command did not infringe on patent rights. The B&S Vanguard was designed in and initially manufactured in Japan.

[AHS 1,491]

5 minutes ago, Wild Bill 633 said:

FYI, Kohler used the Honda v-twin to design the Command. Honda warned Kohler to make sure the Command did not infringe on patent rights. The B&S Vanguard was designed in and initially manufactured in Japan.

Really? I did a quick search for kohler command pro 27… wow!! Aren’t they pricey! $3258.79! I’ll take a Honda GX630 anyway!!

[Racinbob 11,754]

After many decades of Wheel Horses The K-Series is, of course, the most common in my garage. I don't see those ever being topped. The Magnum is basically the same save for the ignition. In 2009 I ran across a 2005 Classic that I couldn't turn down but I must admit that the Command bugged me a bit. But, just like the 84 GT-1100 with a B&S I purchased new, I figured when the engine let go I could just put a K in it. To my surprise, that B&S was great and it never did cause a problem and it was just fine running a 48" deck. I had heard stories about the cheap engines Kohler was making and it wasn't until I did some research did I realize it was the Courage line being referred to and not the Command. Well, after 16 years of running this Command it's never skipped a beat, has an abundance of torque and (I hate to say it) is smoother than any K I've had. Proven though the decades? Nope and I won't live long enough to find out. My only complaint is that apparently the internal bearings won't allow a manual PTO clutch. I still cringe every time I engage that stupid thing. I would convert it in a heartbeat if I could. 

[RED-Z06 2,480]

3 hours ago, Wild Bill 633 said:

FYI, Kohler used the Honda v-twin to design the Command. Honda warned Kohler to make sure the Command did not infringe on patent rights. The B&S Vanguard was designed in and initially manufactured in Japan.

The first Honda V-Twin was introduced in 1993 (GX620), The Command Singles came out in 1986, the Twins about a year later in 1987/88.  They dont share anything architecturally, with the Kohler using hydraulic lifters and a net lash valve train,  very different intake designs, head designs.  The GX singles came out in 1983 though, but the Kohler singles used a vertical cylinder vs laid back like honda.

[kpinnc 13,831]

17 hours ago, Racinbob said:

I still cringe every time I engage that stupid thing.

 

Google "soft start clutch controller". They run about $60, but you will love the results. 

[RED-Z06 2,480]

17 hours ago, Racinbob said:

I still cringe every time I engage that stupid thing.

 

As with any plate clutch, the faster you engage it, the less heat and wear you will get.  The Electric clutches are a magnetic coil, a bearing mounted plate, then a bearing mounted hub.  The hub has a face that rides about 0.020" off the 1st plate, which is keyed to the crankshaft.  The hub face is supported by flexible steel fingers, the pulley is part of this outer hub.  When the engine is running, the 1st hub is spinning, the outer is floating on the bearing, when power is applied to the coil, it pulls the hub face into the spinning hub, locking it 1:1.  These clutches can last thousands of engagements, like 10 a day, 6 days a week, for 15 years..and not fail.

 

The conventional WH pto clutch works, ive had one let go and throw clutch material at me, not fun.  But ideally you want to engage it hard and fast also, its definitely not as violent as the Electric clutch, but the electric clutch isnt hurting anything mechanically.

 

[Racinbob 11,754]

I'm pretty sure I know how an electric clutch works 

 

6 hours ago, kpinnc said:

 

Google "soft start clutch controller". They run about $60, but you will love the results. 

 

That's pretty cool. I've installed countless soft starts for electric motors but never one of those. Same principal but a bit different on method. I know the clutch can take thousands of engagements. It doesn't give a hoot.  I also know that it won't hurt the tractor. The belt could be considered the 'soft start'. But I don't like it. Never did and never will. I guess a plus for the manufacturers in that it offers a simple method of disengaging the pto when you do such outrageous things like backing up when you're mowing. 

Kinda reminds me of when I was teaching my girlfriend (now wife) how to drive a stick in my beloved 1970 Camaro and she used my new tires as a soft start. But I've gone too far off topic already. 

[ebinmaine 70,849]

5 minutes ago, Racinbob said:

1970 Camaro

 

Always been one of my favorite cars. 

 

🤤

[pfrederi 18,357]

7 hours ago, RED-Z06 said:

 

As with any plate clutch, the faster you engage it, the less heat and wear you will get.  The Electric clutches are a magnetic coil, a bearing mounted plate, then a bearing mounted hub.  The hub has a face that rides about 0.020" off the 1st plate, which is keyed to the crankshaft.  The hub face is supported by flexible steel fingers, the pulley is part of this outer hub.  When the engine is running, the 1st hub is spinning, the outer is floating on the bearing, when power is applied to the coil, it pulls the hub face into the spinning hub, locking it 1:1.  These clutches can last thousands of engagements, like 10 a day, 6 days a week, for 15 years..and not fail.

 

The conventional WH pto clutch works, ive had one let go and throw clutch material at me, not fun.  But ideally you want to engage it hard and fast also, its definitely not as violent as the Electric clutch, but the electric clutch isnt hurting anything mechanically.

 

 

 

Maybe that is true for PTO clutch wear ...but not for the implements attached to it. 

[Racinbob 11,754]

6 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

 

 

Maybe that is true for PTO clutch wear ...but not for the implements attached to it. 

 

My point exactly. That's where the belt 'soft start' comes into play. 

Back to my question. Am I correct in saying that a Command wouldn't lend itself to a manual clutch? I've heard that the side thrust would be the problem.