Odd wiring, 1963, 753, unknown motor

[Outlier 57]

My first tractor, went through it about a year and a half ago. I replaced all the wires, but hooked them up the same way I bought it. 

It has been running great, plowing snow and mowing/thatching my lawn. The battery has never charged and slowly goes dead every month or two. 

 

I have always been a little confused by the wiring, it seemed wrong to me with the ground going to batt. positive, but the typical way makes the starter spin backwards, so I've left it.

 

Now I'd like to add an hour meter, with positive off the ignition switch "A" terminal, but I'm puzzled on where to connect the ground when ground seems positive.  

Can anyone shed some light on this wiring situation? Thanks!

 

Edited April 25 by Outlier

[WHX?? 46,941]

First thing comes to mind is starter spins wrong with a positive applied is wrong starter. Trying to charge with the B+ from the regulator going to negative is never gonna work. 

 

Missing cooling tins and questionable wrong starter leads me to believe somebody was not loving the motor correctly. 

 

Motor not being correct for a 753 validates this. Not that the motor won't work sometimes one has to run what was brung. 

 

Coil mounting suggests a service motor but not a 100% identifier. Coil should be located where the regulator is but again not a deal breaker. 

Any chance there is a spec number on the motor? Just guessing it might be a franken motor. Possibly a K181. 

 

Edited April 25 by WHX??

[Outlier 57]

Thanks for the reply - I've looked over the motor very carefully and there are no numbers on it anywhere.

From reading, the right motor would actually have a generator, mounted higher. I had to build a little stand for the battery to get it back in there with the low mount starter.

I also had some trouble getting the choke and throttle to do their jobs, which further supports a non-original.

 

Certainly a franken motor! If I'm stuck with this one for the time being, is there a better way to route things? 

[ri702bill 7,385]

The starter bump out on the shroud may indicate an external starter AND internal charging stator / coil. Is that the case?? TOTALLY different from a 1963 753 with a Starter / Generator. More like a 1979 C81 for wiring......

Edited April 25 by ri702bill

[953 nut 51,991]

2 hours ago, WHX?? said:

Trying to charge with the B+ from the regulator going to negative is never gonna work.

           Chances are the voltage regulator and/or stator had been toasted by reverse voltage. I can't think of an application where a Kohler engine spins counterclockwise from the flywheel side. Perhaps a starter repair shop could make it go the correct way.

[WHX?? 46,941]

19 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

voltage regulator and/or stator had been toasted by reverse voltage. 

Most likely but easy to find out. 

21 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

starter repair shop could make it go the correct way.

I doubt it ... if it's a permanent magnet motor rotation is determined how the polarity of the magnets are epoxied in the case. 

I can't think of an application where the starter drives the PTO side. 

Got a pic of the starter or numbers off it? 

4 hours ago, Outlier said:

replaced all the wires, but hooked them up the same way I bought it. 

Bad decision... never trust the way things were by a cobbling PO but the way things should be. 

[Achto 26,618]

A lot of strange going on. Never have I ever seen a Positive ground on a 12v system. I did obtain a tractor with the battery hooked up backwards on an Onan engine once, it turned over just fine but would not start.

 

Also looking at your diagram it appears as though the two wires coming from the stator are going to the terminals on the right side of the regulator and the wire from the switch is going to the terminal on the left.

Typical regulator/rectifier wiring is the 2 wires from the stator go to the outside terminals and the wire from the switch goes to the center terminal if all tree terms are in line. Top two terminals for the stator and bottom terminal for the switch, for a stacked configuration.

 

Have you ever put a meter on your battery to make sure that the polarity is what it says it is? Just wondering if it was labeled wrong by chance.

Edited April 26 by Achto

[Outlier 57]

I appreciate all the discussion -

• I'll poke around and read about c81 wiring to compare
• What would happen if I were to switch solenoid connections (starter to the other bolt, bat (-) to the one the starter is currently on)?
• The B+ from the ignition switch to the solenoid: Should that just be disconnected until I get more figured out?
• Starter: No markings, but it is a permanent magnet. It worked intermittently so I took it apart and epoxied some broken magnets back where they should go, and it now spins super fast and reliable.
• Battery: I've had two different batteries, the one it came with and one I bought. They both had to be hooked up as I've shown in my diagram.
• Rectifier/regulator/fin thing: The three terminals do have markings... Top left is "B+" (in my diagram, the left "W" white wire to ignition), and the upper and lower right terminals (brown wires) are both labeled "A.C".

I think the weirdest thing is that it really does start and run perfectly, other than charging. I just wish it had an hour meter.

[953 nut 51,991]

6 hours ago, Outlier said:

I appreciate all the discussion -

• I'll poke around and read about c81 wiring to compare
• What would happen if I were to switch solenoid connections (starter to the other bolt, bat (-) to the one the starter is currently on)?  Solenoid is just a switch and doesn't care about polarity
• The B+ from the ignition switch to the solenoid: Should that just be disconnected until I get more figured out?   I think disconnecting the battery would be a good idea.
• Starter: No markings, but it is a permanent magnet. It worked intermittently so I took it apart and epoxied some broken magnets back where they should go, and it now spins super fast and reliable.   Perhaps the magnets got turned around where their polarity is backward. Previous owner could have made the mistake and you just repeated what he had done.
• Battery: I've had two different batteries, the one it came with and one I bought. They both had to be hooked up as I've shown in my diagram.    
• Rectifier/regulator/fin thing: The three terminals do have markings... Top left is "B+" (in my diagram, the left "W" white wire to ignition), and the upper and lower right terminals (brown wires) are both labeled "A.C".       

I think the weirdest thing is that it really does start and run perfectly, other than charging. I just wish it had an hour meter.   not too strange, the ignition coil is not polarity sensitive even though it is marked +/- 

The first obvious problem is on the hood sides,                  poor thing thinks it isn't loved enough to be a Wheel Horse!           

[WHX?? 46,941]

12 hours ago, Achto said:

battery hooked up backwards on an Onan

[WHX?? 46,941]

8 hours ago, Outlier said:

broken magnets back where they should go

Broken magnets = starter shot 

Start your efforts by looking for a new starter. 

1 hour ago, 953 nut said:

The first obvious problem is on the hood sides

Lol not a deal breaker we've seen much worse. We chalk that one up to character...

[J854D 128]

@Outlier, a permanent magnet starter will run backwards if you reverse the polarity to it. The first thing I would suggest is to make sure your battery is not charged up backwards (positive is + and negative is -). It could have happened if the battery was dead enough and/or the battery charger cables were hooked up wrong. If that checks out, the next thing I would suggest is to move the brushes in the starter’s brush holder 1/4 turn/position from where they are now. It looks like from your picture this could be accomplished providing the brushes have enough length on their leads. This will reverse the starter’s direction of rotation to work with negative/- ground. (PO could have had the brushes off 1/4 position) As @953 nut mentioned, the regulator/rectifier and stator might already be toast from the reverse polarity, but getting the starter and battery working on negative/- ground will be a step in the right direction to getting an hour meter wired in and the charging system working. Good luck with it! -JD-

[Outlier 57]

Interesting, I didn't know a battery could be charged backwards. I'll check that out when I get home today. 

 

As far as the brushes go, will moving them over a spot (say, clockwise for instance) really reverse the rotation direction?!

That would be a very easy remedy. I totally could have gotten them in the wrong spots when I put it back together, not realizing their location would be critical to rotation.

 

I don't think the starter had been apart before I checked into it, and the broken chunk wouldn't have fit back in any other way. 

 

Here on the Palouse there are a lot of Case/IH fans. They all get the miniature "Farmall" joke, its fun. Nobody on this side of the country has ever seen a Wheelhorse. 

 

Edited April 26 by Outlier

[J854D 128]

@Outlier, when you move the brushes 1/4 turn/spot in the brush holder it changes the direction of current flow to the armature which affects the rotation. You can do this on starters with field coils also. Most often though the field cases & end caps have alignment pins or notches and the thru bolts can only go in one way so you can’t adjust the end cap/brush holder to affect the rotation. That’s why if your brush leads are long enough to allow you to move the brushes over one space, you can change the starters rotation. -JD-

[WHX?? 46,941]

8 hours ago, Outlier said:

, I didn't know a battery could be charged backwards. 

Truth be told Outy I didn't either but makes sense. 

 

8 hours ago, Outlier said:

not realizing their location would be critical to rotation.

Yes breaking them can change N/S poles. Yours may not have it but most of these starters may a decal saying "Do not Strike"

 

move the brushes over one space, you can change the starters rotation. -JD-

 

This I did not know either  JD.

 

Edited April 27 by WHX??

[J854D 128]

@WHX??, @Outlier, I’ve seen batteries charged up backwards before, although it’s rare. Mostly on used batteries that had harsh environments in AG & Industrial applications. I think they have to be like dang near completely discharged & exposed to heat and vibration for it to happen. Then there are the times when the battery charger is hooked up wrong to bring it on. It can be a real head scratcher to diagnose. Normally ya think just replace it, but AG & industrial batteries can be very pricey. -JD-

[Outlier 57]

On 4/26/2024 at 6:06 AM, J854D said:

the next thing I would suggest is to move the brushes in the starter’s brush holder 1/4 turn/position from where they are now.

@J854D This was spot on! I checked the battery polarity with a voltmeter and it was right, so I opened the starter back up.

I moved the brushes one spot over and everything makes sense now, starter spins the way it is supposed to, and my battery has a negative ground. 

Thanks everyone for all the help!

 

 

[J854D 128]

12 minutes ago, Outlier said:

I moved the brushes one spot over and everything makes sense now, starter spins the way it is supposed to, and my battery has a negative ground.

Great to hear @Outlier! Now you can install an hour meter and check out the charging system! Great detailed pics! -JD-