Soletrac Going Out of Business?

[T-Mo-(Moderator) 4,345]

From what limit research I have done, it seems this is true.

 

 

[WHX?? 46,902]

Never heard of them. Guess that's a good thing. Who would ever consider buying an electric tractor anyway? 

Edit :

A big electric tractor with a fel?

No thank you sir ... ill take my 40 HP diesel. 

Edited March 1 by WHX??

[SylvanLakeWH 24,231]

47 minutes ago, WHX?? said:

Who would ever consider buying an electric tractor anyway? 

 

You looked awfully chipper on one...

 

 

So, I'm in the same boat this dude's in... No one at Wheel Horse will pick up the phone and help me out with questions on my two E-141's or my A-60...!!! 

Edited February 29 by SylvanLakeWH

[953 nut 51,919]

There goes another quarter million of government research and development money down the drain. Seems our government can't throw money away fast enough funding research on things people don't want to buy.            

[WHX?? 46,902]

I was planning on putting a fel on it Sylvia... Time to bust out the welder I'm sure I could fit one up to Richard's electric jobby. 

Any of those govment funds left @953 nut? 

9 hours ago, SylvanLakeWH said:

one at Wheel Horse will pick up the phone and help me out with questions on my two E-141's or my A-60...!!! 

Good thing you got bros to help you out then... 

Edited March 1 by WHX??

[953 nut 51,919]

12 hours ago, WHX?? said:

Any of those govment funds left @953 nut?

  I suppose if you made a sizable contribution to the campaign fund of the right candidate you could probably fill out a grant application and get funding for a "worthwhile" project involving an electric anything.   

[wh500special 2,055]

This is interesting.  I had never heard of that tractor. 
 

I can see some potential (no pun intended) benefits of an electric Compact Utility Tractor (CUT):  net energy savings, cheap operation, minimal noise, refueling convenience, lower maintenance, no fumes, instant starts, etc.   I bet it’s perfect in a livestock barn with a manure bucket where there is no virtue of diesel exhaust and haze…of course that environment has its own variety of fumes and haze so maybe nobody cares.  
 

This is clearly not for most full-time farms as a machine to be used all day long.  The marketing words on their website about battery runtime are specious at best.  
 

It’s ideally suited for those who are 5-10 acre property owners who mow once or twice a week and use a loader as a wheelbarrow.  For that type of user, it can make a lot of sense.  If I had stayed in my old house in the middle of BFE I can see this almost working for me. 
 

But this looks like many design compromises were made that probably complicated its mission and perhaps doomed its success.  I am going to assume this product is an upfit of an existing diesel powered tractor rather than a clean sheet design.  It seems highly unlikely and prohibitively expensive to have designed castings, a transmission, all the mechanical bits, AND a complicated electrical system. 
 

it seems that the hydraulic system runs continuously.  That seems like a watt waster.  Why not a closed center demand type system?  Likely a relic of the donor chassis. 

 

also, it’s peculiar that the PTO remains driven off the transmission of the unit instead of being independently powered by a dedicated electric motor.  In addition to gear drag and concomitant power wasting, it makes PTO speed tied to main drive motor speed which translates into wasting power when either (or both) pto load and tractor speed are low.   Again, a chassis limitation. 
 

Most significantly, the battery is pretty small.  It is only 25 kW-hr capacity.  Assuming that’s its usable capacity, that translates into not a lot of run time when working.  For instance, let’s guess that it takes 5 hp to move the thing around on flat ground plus run the hydraulic pump constantly and account for losses in the running gear.  Throw in a big mower (60”) that might be sucking down a continuous 10 hp for a combined load of 15 hp.  That’s about 11 kW of load.  With that battery you’re not even at 2.5 of run time.  Making some estimations (3 mph x 2.5 hr x 5’ cut x 90% efficiency) , you can mow maybe 3.5 - 4 acres on a charge.   Admittedly, that is pretty impressive but it seems like if you need a tractor that big, you’d want more capacity than that.  
 

The video achieved around two hours of runtime with a pretty large mower attached, so the math holds up in reality.  Anybody expecting “all day” battery life should easily be able to work out their reality before signing on the dotted line. 
 

if you’re using it for loader work, then I think the picture is much more rosy.  It doesn’t take near as much continuous power for that task.  

but where would a bigger battery go?  Once again, a constraint of the conversion process. 

 

This is also an uphill marketing climb.   For

the most part - and I have no data to back this up - rural people who would need such a machine aren’t really philosophically aligned with electrification of vehicles in general.  There is also a general lack of understanding of electric things so there is a lack of familiarity with things like this.  This can easily result in a mismatch of real and perceived capacities. 
 

Clearly, the engineers who worked on this were limited by the donor tractor chassis that served as the core of the machine.  I would imagine if they had scratch designed the whole thing from headlight to hitch there would be fewer compromises and better optimization.  I’ve been on a lot of projects like this and the realities of budget and time always inform the final product. 
 

I can imagine how much brainpower and effort went into this.   It’s too bad it didn’t quite hit the bullseye. 
 

  Looking back, GE almost nailed it with their Elec Traks in comparison…if they had the batteries then that we do today I’d wager the garden tractor and CUT landscape would be much different than it is now. 
 

I really like the concept.  I hope this effort hasn’t pooped in the bathtub for future models. 
 

Steve

Edited March 5 by wh500special

[wh500special 2,055]

On 2/29/2024 at 9:44 AM, 953 nut said:

There goes another quarter million of government research and development money down the drain. Seems our government can't throw money away fast enough funding research on things people don't want to buy.            

 

On 3/1/2024 at 6:47 AM, 953 nut said:

  I suppose if you made a sizable contribution to the campaign fund of the right candidate you could probably fill out a grant application and get funding for a "worthwhile" project involving an electric anything.   

 Where is this coming from?  Was that mentioned in the video?

 

Steve

[T-Mo-(Moderator) 4,345]

The latest from the owner of the video, Tractor Tim:

 

"Solectrac Interim CEO (Ideanomics COO) called me.

They are ditching most of their dealers, attempting a direct sales model.

I’m hearing from owners that he is contacting each individual owner.

I read through the investment documents. Ideanomics keeps borrowing money specifically for another division (WAVE), but none for Solectrac. Solectrac is considered ‘Held for sale’ and ‘Discontinued Operations’ according to the latest 10-Q.

The words of the Interim CEO to me do not seem to match up to those in the official SEC documentation."

[953 nut 51,919]

9 hours ago, wh500special said:

 

 Where is this coming from?  Was that mentioned in the video?

 

Steve

I did a search on the company name and found information on "Green Energy" grants they had received.

[SylvanLakeWH 24,231]

11 hours ago, wh500special said:

This is interesting.  I had never heard of that tractor. 
 

I can see some potential (no pun intended) benefits of an electric Compact Utility Tractor (CUT):  net energy savings, cheap operation, minimal noise, refueling convenience, lower maintenance, no fumes, instant starts, etc.   I bet it’s perfect in a livestock barn with a manure bucket where there is no virtue of diesel exhaust and haze…of course that environment has its own variety of fumes and haze so maybe nobody cares.  
 

This is clearly not for most full-time farms as a machine to be used all day long.  The marketing words on their website about battery runtime are specious at best.  
 

It’s ideally suited for those who are 5-10 acre property owners who mow once or twice a week and use a loader as a wheelbarrow.  For that type of user, it can make a lot of sense.  If I had stayed in my old house in the middle of BFE I can see this almost working for me. 
 

But this looks like many design compromises were made that probably complicated its mission and perhaps doomed its success.  I am going to assume this product is an upfit of an existing diesel powered tractor rather than a clean sheet design.  It seems highly unlikely and prohibitively expensive to have designed castings, a transmission, all the mechanical bits, AND a complicated electrical system. 
 

it seems that the hydraulic system runs continuously.  That seems like a watt waster.  Why not a closed center demand type system?  Likely a relic of the donor chassis. 

 

also, it’s peculiar that the PTO remains driven off the transmission of the unit instead of being independently powered by a dedicated electric motor.  In addition to gear drag and concomitant power wasting, it makes PTO speed tied to main drive motor speed which translates into wasting power when either (or both) pto load and tractor speed are low.   Again, a chassis limitation. 
 

Most significantly, the battery is pretty small.  It is only 25 kW-hr capacity.  Assuming that’s its usable capacity, that translates into not a lot of run time when working.  For instance, let’s guess that it takes 5 hp to move the thing around on flat ground plus run the hydraulic pump constantly and account for losses in the running gear.  Throw in a big mower (60”) that might be sucking down a continuous 10 hp for a combined load of 15 hp.  That’s about 11 kW of load.  With that battery you’re not even at 2.5 of run time.  Making some estimations (3 mph x 2.5 hr x 5’ cut x 90% efficiency) , you can mow maybe 3.5 - 4 acres on a charge.   Admittedly, that is pretty impressive but it seems like if you need a tractor that big, you’d want more capacity than that.  
 

The video achieved around two hours of runtime with a pretty large mower attached, so the math holds up in reality.  Anybody expecting “all day” battery life should easily be able to work out their reality before signing on the dotted line. 
 

if you’re using it for loader work, then I think the picture is much more rosy.  It doesn’t take near as much continuous power for that task.  

but where would a bigger battery go?  Once again, a constraint of the conversion process. 

 

This is also an uphill marketing climb.   For

the most part - and I have no data to back this up - rural people who would need such a machine aren’t really philosophically aligned with electrification of vehicles in general.  There is also a general lack of understanding of electric things so there is a lack of familiarity with things like this.  This can easily result in a mismatch of real and perceived capacities. 
 

Clearly, the engineers who worked on this were limited by the donor tractor chassis that served as the core of the machine.  I would imagine if they had scratch designed the whole thing from headlight to hitch there would be fewer compromises and better optimization.  I’ve been on a lot of projects like this and the realities of budget and time always inform the final product. 
 

I can imagine how much brainpower and effort went into this.   It’s too bad it didn’t quite hit the bullseye. 
 

  Looking back, GE almost nailed it with their Elec Traks in comparison…if they had the batteries then that we do today I’d wager the garden tractor and CUT landscape would be much different than it is now. 
 

I really like the concept.  I hope this effort hasn’t pooped in the bathtub for future models. 
 

Steve

 

 Well said.

 

I have two E-141's and an A-60  and my experience reflects much of what you say...

 

The A-60 is just fine for what is asked of it. Nothing more than pull a cart or mow an average lawn. Does what it was designed to do. Very well...

 

The E-141 is simply a repowered C black hood, with a few minor chassis modifications to address battery placement. In no way will it perform all day like a gas version, but for it's useable charge battery life it does everything the same... so for my suburban mow, plow snow, pull kids around on the train etc. it is perfect. Quiet, simple, zero maintenance...

 

Just like battery powered hand tools, cars etc. i think these will fill a very large role in the future lawn / yard maintenance sector.  Not because of government mandates, but because for many (most?) they really make sense. I have no gas powered lawn care equipment anymore. The 20 v Dewalt line handles three suburban yards every week for me with zero issues and the same batteries my hand tools use. Mower, blower, pole saw, chain saw, hedge trimmer, lopping shears and weed whip. 5th season coming up and literally no issues and no maintenance. All batteries still going strong...

 

Yes, I still use and love my dino-juice C-105. Yes, it will go all day. No, I will not sell it. No, I do not hug trees. But... Simple fact is - I never need it to go more than an hour...

 

 

 

[wh500special 2,055]

57 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

I did a search on the company name and found information on "Green Energy" grants they had received.

 

Fair enough.

 

I have to wonder what a $250k grant would be tied to.  That's a small drop in the bucket compared to the cost of developing a product like this, so I wonder if it was for facilities improvements or something.  Satellite views of their facility in CA shows PV panels on the roof, so it might even have been a subsidy for those. And there is fairly widespread eligibility for that sort of thing.

 

This morning I found a $515k chunk of money from the state of CA that mentioned them as well..  i didn't read into it deeply because I don't really care, but the inference was that this money would be paid to CA farmers who bought an electric tractor for use on their farm or orchard.  So I don't think this one is direct to Solectrac, but they are a beneficiary for sure.

 

I'm not telling you I support public money for product research projects or that I disagree with you.  Or that I do and I don't.  I'm  just wondering aloud.  Your word choice and phrasing often makes me wonder about the objectivity of some of your content, so i asked for follow up.

 

The topic of government money, subsidies, and grants is a curious thing.  A lot of us say and feel that we want the market to decide which products make it which fail but we employ our own tax breaks and incentives, clamor for better pricing on medication, and want to impose tariffs that protect this industry or that.  We also decry government funding of research and yet we participate in the advances of medicine, science, and technology that were seeded by such funding.  I guess the main problem is that we can't predict the future to know which investments will make sense and which will die a slow and painful death.

 

The consumer uptake into electrification is taking longer than many hoped.  And yet it's coming much faster than many would like.  From an efficiency standpoint it sure seems inevitable.   From a cost standpoint...there is a long, long way to go to reach any kind of parity.

 

I do appreciate your comments and contributions by the way.  Don't let any of this suggest that I don't.

 

Steve

[Handy Don 10,656]

1 hour ago, wh500special said:

A lot of us say and feel that we want the market to decide which products make it which fail but we employ our own tax breaks and incentives, clamor for better pricing on medication, and want to impose tariffs that protect this industry or that.  We also decry government funding of research and yet we participate in the advances of medicine, science, and technology that were seeded by such funding.  I guess the main problem is that we can't predict the future to know which investments will make sense and which will die a slow and painful death.

I am of the opinion that subsidies and grants are, like democracy, messy but ultimately better than the “other” methods of encouraging development. My work career involved designing mostly software solutions to business problems and I can attest to the corporate reticence about self-investing beyond what leadership thought would give a near certain and relatively short-term payback. But where grant funding or tax savings for an activity was available, even if the results could not remain proprietary, the risk tolerance went up noticeably (the “OPM”, Other People’s Money, phenomenon at work).

So often, a great idea will languish until there are working examples--then lots of folks want to be on board. No bureaucratic methodology will ever “fairly” allocate the risk/reward equation for the cost of converting ideas to reality because we all have such different definitions of “fair”, right? Hence we have an amalgam of venture capital, cash flow lending, grants, tax incentives, patents, and outright government investment (e.g. NASA, NSF, and the US militaries) funding advancements of new ideas. The list of things we rely on today that would have taken much longer to be realized without this combined investment is long and includes computers, cell phones, many pharmaceuticals, the electric grid, and sanitary sewer systems.

Edited March 5 by Handy Don

[T-Mo-(Moderator) 4,345]

I feel we're veering into some political content with talk of government grants, etc.  I know the author of the video mentioned government mandates, but let's not venture into where the money came from to start up Soletrac's company.  But let us reflect on the fact that another company is failing and a tractor company at that.  I do like the talk of the technology of the tractor and what may be the limitations of the design versus the tractor's frame, and what can make it better.

[Handy Don 10,656]

6 hours ago, T-Mo said:

feel we're veering into some political content with talk of government grants, etc. 

Point taken. I did try to avoid politics and stick to “financials” but it can be a slippery slope, for sure!

[T-Mo-(Moderator) 4,345]

As someone pointed out to me in a PM, it's hard not to link politics to EVs, etc.  But, if we can focus on the design, specifications, etc. of electric power equipment, we can avoid mentioning politics.

[Sailman 1,134]

I think the "market" does the end game talking here. Trying to force things with grants, government regulations, etc may be occasionally beneficial but it often does not "force" the desired result. Forcing electric cars and trucks has had limited success. There are those few in metro areas that buying a Tesla makes sense (if you have the $$), yet many of us needing truck power and distance simply can't use it...we need our dinosaur powered vehicles. Manufacturers and dealers are backing off from the "hype" as reality has shown the demand is not there yet.

However, the "hybrid" concept has seen a great deal of success and seems to be a better "transition" technology.

I have dabbled in the solar power arena and have discovered, as many others have, its expensive and has serious limitations for the average Joe. Yet, there are more and more applications where it makes sense for some folks.

Lastly, consider the success of battery powered tools where the technology has developed to the point they are a great improvement, with responding market share. We will likely see riding mowers going electric as a result of this success.

Almost every sector of "new technology" goes through growing pains....some fail, some succeed but ultimately it has to work for a critical mass of end users to be successful.