Trapdoor hinges

[Mickwhitt 4,229]

Bit more work today. I made the steel sub frame for the door. Made hinge plates to bolt the hinges to the wooden wall plate, threaded M6.

Made hinge plates to weld to the sub frame.

All fitted to see how it all works. There are a few tweaks needed and everything needs cleaning up ready for painting. 

 

 

 

 

The hinge plates actually support the rear edge of the sub frame, which was a happy accident. 

Angle grinder out tomorrow to clean up all the welds and get her ready to prime. 

 

[CCW 1,233]

Nicely done.

[953 nut 52,204]

             Have you considered attaching a hand railing to the subframe so that it can stedy you as you go down the steps?             

When it is down you won't even see the railing and none of us are getting any younger.   

[Horse Newbie 6,951]

23 hours ago, Handy Don said:

only whilst the door is open

Take a closer look @Handy Don

Looks to me like when the door is down the hinges are supporting the metal subframe and the door- which looks plenty strong to me…

Edited October 22, 2023 by Horse Newbie

[Handy Don 10,751]

21 hours ago, Horse Newbie said:

Take a closer look @Handy Don

Looks to me like when the door is down the hinges are supporting the metal subframe and the door- which looks plenty strong to me…

The pads the hinges are bolted to are doing the support when the door is closed, I think, not the hinge mechanism itself.

[Mickwhitt 4,229]

OK. The trap door works fine but I'm looking at powering it for when I become old and weak lol.

I've bought a 250kg winch which will definitely manage the load.

It has a pendant type control unit. Which is fine but I would like to swap out the limit switches which are operated on the winch housing and place new switches on the frame to limit the travel of the winch when the door is open or closed.

Does that sound a simple job? I'm thinking two plunger switches wired in place of the microswitches in the housing.

Just extending the wiring loom to the new switch positions. 

Any sparkles with an idea if I'm barking up a horse of the wring colour.

 

[Handy Don 10,751]

The two tricks to limit switches are:

a) wiring them so that when the winch is at one end of its travel the now “open” limit switch doesn’t prevent starting the movement in the other direction, and

b) making sure that when both switches are “closed” (during winch travel) that it doesn’t just short the circuit.

 

In your case, paralleling the switches will likely not work since the on-winch switch might well remain “closed” even while the on-door switch goes “open” to say STOP.

Assuming the switches go “open” to stop movement, you’d have to add new switches in series with existing switches AND make sure that the door travel limits are always less than the winch limits.

 

Hope that makes sense 😁

Edited November 9, 2023 by Handy Don

[Mickwhitt 4,229]

Don. I think that makes sense to me lol.

 

I understand about the original switches causing an issue if I piggy back onto them, as in parallel connection. But if I take out those switches completely and replace them with the ones on the trapdoor it won't be a problem. 

 

I'd like to swap the pendant switch too, which houses the switches and capacitor. Thinking of a simple up down toggle switch. I think I can simply piggy back onto the pendant switch terminals and make a kind of remote switch away from the remote. That way I could have the original remote down in the basement to activate the trap and the remote one upstairs to operate it. 

 

I'm.not good with wiring diagrams etc but if it looks logical I think I can do it. 

 

Mick 

[Handy Don 10,751]

14 hours ago, Mickwhitt said:

I'm.not good with wiring diagrams etc but if it looks logical I think I can do it. 

Not a shred of doubt. Really. Absolutely. I think... 

 

Me? I’d leave the built-in limit switches in place and functional as insurance and then add the door limit switches in series.

For the in/out switch that controls the winch, though, you must wire in parallel so that either switch will operate the door.

 

Make extremely sure that all users know NEVER to use the controls at that the top and bottom at the same time--I’m thinking of curious children (of which I was a prime example!)

 

And you decided not to use a spring or a sash-style counter weight system because...?

 

[Mickwhitt 4,229]

Thanks Don. Now I just have to work out what in series and in parallel mean with regards to my switches. Lol

I know series and parallel re batteries but not sure how that looks when dealing with switches, especially ones with multiple connections. 

[Mickwhitt 4,229]

Made up a bracket today to carry the hoist unit.

 

I can work out the lift rope runs now and make a suitable pulley. It will become clear when you see it. 

[Handy Don 10,751]

9 hours ago, Mickwhitt said:

Thanks Don. Now I just have to work out what in series and in parallel mean with regards to my switches. Lol

I know series and parallel re batteries but not sure how that looks when dealing with switches, especially ones with multiple connections. 

For simplicity, using On-Off switches:

- in series, the switches form a chain. ALL the switches must be ON for current to flow. If ANY switch is OFF, then current cannot flow

This is what you want for limit switches. If the either the door or the winch limit is reached, the winch turns off.

 

- in parallel, the switches form a ladder. ANY of the switches turned on will allow current to flow. Only if ALL The switches are off does the current stop

This is what you want for raise/lower switches. Either switch activates the winch.

 

Likely, the motion switch is a bit more complicated -- a SPDT (single pole, double throw) with three terminals--but maybe not. Got any pictures of the innards of the motion switch?

Edited November 11, 2023 by Handy Don

[Handy Don 10,751]

I’m looking at this manual for a small Warrior Winch. On page 11 it shows the rocker switch that, I’m assuming, is the motion switch with three wires coming out.

 

Likely, one wire will be “common” and each of the other two wires, when connected in turn to “common” powers the winch in one or the other direction.

You can discern which wire is which (common, wind, unwind) using a continuity tester or the ohm setting on a meter when the winch is unplugged.

 

It’ll also be important, since your winch plugs into the mains, to learn the voltages of the wires at the switch when in use since that will determine the needed capacity of the extra switch.

 

All of the above notwithstanding, I seems like you can purchase a “remote” switch that simply plugs in! 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Handy Don

[Mickwhitt 4,229]

Hi Don.

Here is a photo of the inside of the control handle.

 

The wiring is a bit more complicated because of the capacitor gizmo wired into the switch. 

 

The limit switches are activated by the hook hitting a moving collar or the wire hitting a moving bar at top and bottom extremes of cable travel. Since the winch will only move by around a metre and there will be no hook the built in limit switches will be redundant.

The big red switch is an emerency stop button. Its a non latching rocker switch for up and down. 

Does it matter where the capacitor is located, if I simply change the rocker switch for a remote pair of buttons, leaving the handset intact for example. 

[Handy Don 10,751]

4 hours ago, Mickwhitt said:

Hi Don.

Here is a photo of the inside of the control handle.

 

The wiring is a bit more complicated because of the capacitor gizmo wired into the switch. 

 

The limit switches are activated by the hook hitting a moving collar or the wire hitting a moving bar at top and bottom extremes of cable travel. Since the winch will only move by around a metre and there will be no hook the built in limit switches will be redundant.

The big red switch is an emerency stop button. Its a non latching rocker switch for up and down. 

Does it matter where the capacitor is located, if I simply change the rocker switch for a remote pair of buttons, leaving the handset intact for example. 

You never know when a “redundant” element becomes important. I get, though, that the mechanical activation of the switch might not apply with your setup!

The capacitor is needed, but you only need the one. An “auxilliary” switch can still use that one electrically. 

Can we see the other side of the switch so that I can relate the wiring to the switches? Is the emergency switch a toggle or is it momentary contact? 

[Mickwhitt 4,229]

The stop switch is a button that locks when pressed, you have to twist it to release. 

 

I agree about not making safety features redundant,  but as you say mechanical activation of the original limit switches will not be possible in my set up. 

 

 

[Handy Don 10,751]

18 minutes ago, Mickwhitt said:

The stop switch is a button that locks when pressed, you have to twist it to release. 

 

I agree about not making safety features redundant,  but as you say mechanical activation of the original limit switches will not be possible in my set up. 

 

 

What are you doing awake at this hour!?

[Mickwhitt 4,229]

Heavy cold and my lovely dog wanted a drink lol. 

Figured I could catch up on any messages I missed.

[Handy Don 10,751]

If you can get a couple more shots of the switch body front and side that let me trace the wires, I’ll try to sketch a wiring diagram we can mark up for the remote control.

[Mickwhitt 4,229]

I will get on it, just doing some decorating work so whenever painted ill get busy. 

[Mickwhitt 4,229]

[Handy Don 10,751]

Ok, that is very slick. Well done, sir!

[formariz 11,874]

Very well done.👍

[953 nut 52,204]

On 10/21/2023 at 7:17 PM, 953 nut said:

             Have you considered attaching a hand railing to the subframe so that it can stedy you as you go down the steps?             

When it is down you won't even see the railing and none of us are getting any younger.   

The door operation is outstanding and the finished floor looks great but as we age out balance suffers.       A handrail attached to the bottom of the door could be a lifesaver.    

[Mickwhitt 4,229]

1 hour ago, 953 nut said:

The door operation is outstanding and the finished floor looks great but as we age out balance suffers.       A handrail attached to the bottom of the door could be a lifesave

Hi 953,

 

Thank you for your very kind words about the trapdoor operation. I'm very pleased with it so far. But you are very right about the possibility of a trip or fall on the stairs.

 

I'm  fully committed to fitting a hand rail to the trap now I know where it lands at the top of its travel. Once the limit switches are sorted I will be working on a solution. 

 

Mick