312-H did not start after running out the fuel

[Pokk 4]

Hi Everyone, anyone please can help. My 312-H was running fine until the fuel was out of the tank. I filled the fresh fuel but she did not start again. I checked the battery had 13.1 V. The fuel line flowed well but no fuel to the bowl cab. I also noticed that when I turned the key - The engine sounded "ngee-ngee..."  no cracks and the flywheel did not turn. I still can spin the flywheel by hand. I used the light to check: the fuse 15 (light), the fuse 25 (no light - I am not sure what the fuse is for), the celenoise (light), the starter (light). All comments are appreciated ! Thank you in advance. 

 

[ri702bill 7,381]

Welcome!! All tractors with the tank under the seat can be rather difficult to get fuel to the carb once you loose prime. Some folks add an outboard motor priming bulb, others switch to an electric pump.Others use air LOW  - no more than 5 PSI - pressure compressed air and a rag at the gas tank cap opening.

Do not use ether based starting fluid to get it running; rather, use carb cleaner IN SMALL AMOUNTS!! 

Edited July 4, 2023 by ri702bill

[Pokk 4]

ri702bill: Thanks ! I completely made mistakes for years, I always used the quick start all the time for my B100, and other models for cold start. From now on, I will use the carb cleaner instead of starting the engine. Re. my question on 312-H, a friend told me that the starter did not engage the flywheel - so he asked me to remove the flywheel's cover and find out why the starter did not engage. Is this the right thing I should do? 

 

Also, if anyone can please tell me to take off the cover and look for the issue on the starter.   

Edited July 5, 2023 by Pokk

[Jon Paulsen 282]

If the engine is not turning at all, then it could be the starter. There's a gear on it that should pop up and engage the teeth on the flywheel. If it doesn't jump up and engage the flywheel, it's usually caused by crud. You will probably have to get that cover off to see it in action. I've really only worked on B&S engines. I've gotten a few Koehler's running for neighbors, but no real troubleshooting experience. If the gear is stuck, this might not be the best way but it's always worked for me as a permanent fix. I just clean up the sliding surface with carb cleaner and spray some dry lube (teflon spray) on the offending part. You'll see how it works when you look at it. I also put some really sticky red grease on the teeth that engage. Just a very small amount. Listen to the advice of others on the grease before me. It might just attract dust. I can give you a cool red splatter stain across your T-shirt 

 

I bit of advice on spraying flammable stuff into a carb. Never, ever, ever do this on a running engine. If it backfires it can ruin your day. Or year. Or kill you. When I was a kid, an experienced mechanic that went to our church sprayed ether (starting fluid, quick start, whatever you want to call it) into a the carb of a poorly running engine. The engine backfired and he got 3rd degree burns from head to toe. It might be rare, but it can happen, and it's not worth a year of skin grafts to get a vehicle to start. Carb spray is probably safer in this regard. I spray, get the breather cover on, then try to start it. 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,522]

It ran out of fuel and quit. The pto may be still engaged - pto must be off to start.

Transmission must also be in neutral.

Have a tractor model and serial number? Needed to find the correct wiring diagrams.

[Pokk 4]

10 hours ago, Jon Paulsen said:

If the engine is not turning at all, then it could be the starter. There's a gear on it that should pop up and engage the teeth on the flywheel. If it doesn't jump up and engage the flywheel, it's usually caused by crud. You will probably have to get that cover off to see it in action. I've really only worked on B&S engines. I've gotten a few Koehler's running for neighbors, but no real troubleshooting experience. If the gear is stuck, this might not be the best way but it's always worked for me as a permanent fix. I just clean up the sliding surface with carb cleaner and spray some dry lube (teflon spray) on the offending part. You'll see how it works when you look at it. I also put some really sticky red grease on the teeth that engage. Just a very small amount. Listen to the advice of others on the grease before me. It might just attract dust. I can give you a cool red splatter stain across your T-shirt 

 

I bit of advice on spraying flammable stuff into a carb. Never, ever, ever do this on a running engine. If it backfires it can ruin your day. Or year. Or kill you. When I was a kid, an experienced mechanic that went to our church sprayed ether (starting fluid, quick start, whatever you want to call it) into a the carb of a poorly running engine. The engine backfired and he got 3rd degree burns from head to toe. It might be rare, but it can happen, and it's not worth a year of skin grafts to get a vehicle to start. Carb spray is probably safer in this regard. I spray, get the breather cover on, then try to start it. 

Jon Paulsen: Thanks ! Your expert recxommendation is consistent in this post "c-145 starter not engaging flywheel".

And "spraying the inflamable liquid" -  I don't understand why they sale such "quick start" - so people like me are at risk of injuries !

 

 

[Pokk 4]

10 hours ago, gwest_ca said:

It ran out of fuel and quit. The pto may be still engaged - pto must be off to start.

Transmission must also be in neutral.

Have a tractor model and serial number? Needed to find the correct wiring diagrams.

gwest_ca: Agree + Thanks ! I will have them this afternoon. 

[Ed Kennell 35,929]

Sounds like the starter is running but not engaging the flywheel..      The engaging spiral probably just needs cleaned.   Remove the tin,  pull the gear into the flywheel.

  Then spray the spiral with carb cleaner until the parts are clean.  Then lube with powered graphite.   

 The starter should now engage and crank the engine unless the starter shaft has broken....I have found the shafts broken on three of the 50+ tractors I have worked on.

With the starter now working, you may have to prime the pump to get fuel to the carb. to get the engine to start.

 

[Rick3478 377]

To me, "ngeee, ngeee" sounds like engine cranking with normal compression, but you say the flywheel is not turning, which contradicts.  So, I'm conflicted.  If the starter is not engaging, you may need to clean the bendix (little gear assembly on the end of the starter) and lube with graphite, no grease or liquid.  On the other hand, the most likely thing, since you just ran the fuel dry, is the fuel pump has lost its prime.  If that's the case you may have to crank it awhile to get fuel sucked up into the pump.  Or if it's never been pumped dry before and its valves are a bit leaky, it may never suck the air out, and may need some help.

[Pokk 4]

Hello - Sorry for my pause. I felt better for the flu. I remove th ecover and foud out Bendix and the flywheel of my 312-H - why she cannot start after running the fuel with serial number and model number. Any thoughts/comments on this issue. Thanks you a ton !

[Pokk 4]

Also,I noticed that the OEM and a new pump are signbigificantly different - aI clened the OEM pump and put back.

You may notice that the wire was damaged by a mice. 

[Pokk 4]

On 7/5/2023 at 9:52 AM, Ed Kennell said:

Sounds like the starter is running but not engaging the flywheel..      The engaging spiral probably just needs cleaned.   Remove the tin,  pull the gear into the flywheel.

  Then spray the spiral with carb cleaner until the parts are clean.  Then lube with powered graphite.   

 The starter should now engage and crank the engine unless the starter shaft has broken....I have found the shafts broken on three of the 50+ tractors I have worked on.

With the starter now working, you may have to prime the pump to get fuel to the carb. to get the engine to start.

 

Ed Kennell: I wish to see your clip at you mentioned "Remove the tin,  pull the gear into the flywheel.   Then spray the spiral with carb cleaner until the parts are clean. Then lube with powered graphite. ..." I tried to find on YouTube but could find one so far

[lynnmor 6,815]

Ed had a typo, he meant powdered graphite, a black dry dust, available at many hardware and auto parts stores.  The small gear in your photo needs to move freely when you pull on it to compress the spring, Ed wants you to pull that gear in and out while cleaning the shaft with the cleaner.

[Ed Kennell 35,929]

[Pokk 4]

2 minutes ago, lynnmor said:

Ed had a typo, he meant powdered graphite, a black dry dust, available at many hardware and auto parts stores.  The small gear in your photo needs to move freely when you pull on it to compress the spring, Ed wants you to pull that gear in and out while cleaning the shaft with the cleaner.

Hi lynnmor: Thanks for your contribution. I was able to clean this morning with cab cleaner. The spring is compressed freely althought the grear appeared not to be. However, I will check the gear again - I think Ed aid I should be able to pull the gear with my fingers and compress the spring ! 

[Pokk 4]

1 minute ago, Ed Kennell said:

Hi Ed: Thanks a lot - I am going out to a store before it closed. 

[Ed Kennell 35,929]

3 minutes ago, Pokk said:

I think Ed aid I should be able to pull the gear with my fingers and compress the spring ! 

You will have to rotate the gear as you pull it to the flywheel.

[Pokk 4]

Hi eryone - To update, I was able to perform what Ed said. Also, I found the powdered graphite - should I just lube on the both grears of the flywheel and the starter.   

[Ed Kennell 35,929]

Not on the gears.  Just on the shaft under the starter gear.

[Rick3478 377]

1 hour ago, Pokk said:

Hi eryone - To update, I was able to perform what Ed said. Also, I found the powdered graphite - should I just lube on the both grears of the flywheel and the starter.   

I don't think it will hurt the gear teeth, but where it really needs is up inside the little gear where spiral grooves you can't see propel it out into the flywheel.  Your slightly different looking fuel pump is the plastic replacement made to replace the old metal type.  I'm not a huge fan, but they work okay.  Your spark wire looks usable, I've seen much worse.  It's stiff and spaced far enough from the shroud that it shouldn't arc.

[Pokk 4]

Big thanks to Everyone, especially to Ed ! This is a real practical class for me ! I will update. 

 

[Pokk 4]

Hello

Just to follow-up my 312-H runs but I have noticed that the sound is quite noise, speed reduce, and when I accelerate it wants to quit.

Anyone can please advise me. I thought may be due to the gas pump    

[Rick3478 377]

13 hours ago, Pokk said:

Hello

Just to follow-up my 312-H runs but I have noticed that the sound is quite noise, speed reduce, and when I accelerate it wants to quit.

Anyone can please advise me. I thought may be due to the gas pump    

 

I don't know if it's related, but they run a little strange if the compression release gets stuck.