Whining from PTO

[Panther416-8 341]

A high pitched whining sound just started on my 416 PTO. It's definitely coming from the PTO housing as the noise is gone if I run without the PTO. I cleaned out all of the grease and both the outer bearing for the small shaft and the larger needle bearing seem to turn smoothly with no looseness or rough feeling or sound.  Any suggestions?   Grease it all real good and reassemble? I would hate to press out bearings that seem to be in good shape.

[ineedanother 1,365]

23 minutes ago, Panther416-8 said:

A high pitched whining sound just started on my 416 PTO. It's definitely coming from the PTO housing as the noise is gone if I run without the PTO. I cleaned out all of the grease and both the outer bearing for the small shaft and the larger needle bearing seem to turn smoothly with no looseness or rough feeling or sound.  Any suggestions?   Grease it all real good and reassemble? I would hate to press out bearings that seem to be in good shape.

Try it without belts on it.

[Heatingman 941]

35 minutes ago, Panther416-8 said:

A high pitched whining sound just started on my 416 PTO. It's definitely coming from the PTO housing as the noise is gone if I run without the PTO. I cleaned out all of the grease and both the outer bearing for the small shaft and the larger needle bearing seem to turn smoothly with no looseness or rough feeling or sound.  Any suggestions?   Grease it all real good and reassemble? I would hate to press out bearings that seem to be in good shape.

when pto is engaged or disengaged or both?

[Panther416-8 341]

It did it with PTO disengaged.  I didn't try it with it engaged. As for the belt it doesn't make any whining sound with the transaxle drive belt on but with the PTO removed. When the PTO was on and making the whining sound there was no belt on it to any attachment.

[ineedanother 1,365]

Based on that, I suspect if you'll read through this thread and follow @peter lena recommendations that whining will be gone.

 

 

[Jeff-C175 7,195]

Maybe the clutch plate is down to the rivets?  Or possibly the brake pad?

 

It's a WHINE, right?  Definitely not a SQUEAL, like metal on metal?

 

 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,495]

The only thing turning with the pto on is the small bearing in the end of the bell. Perhaps it is starting to fail.

[Panther416-8 341]

6 hours ago, Jeff-C175 said:

Maybe the clutch plate is down to the rivets?  Or possibly the brake pad?

 

It's a WHINE, right?  Definitely not a SQUEAL, like metal on metal?

 

 

Jeff, the clutch plate is good and thick and the brake pad is also good and only a few weeks old. It is definitely whine and not a metal on metal squeal.

 

6 hours ago, gwest_ca said:

The only thing turning with the pto on is the small bearing in the end of the bell. Perhaps it is starting to fail.

Gwest, I'm probably going to replace the small bearing and regrease the needle bearing with the high temp Lucas grease that Pete suggests.

All, now that the large and small outer snap rings have been removed. Is it just a matter of using a drift/punch and working from inside the PTO housing to tap the small bearing out of the housing? I see there are two notches 180 degrees apart that it looks like they could be used in coordination with a punch.

6 hours ago, ineedanother said:

Based on that, I suspect if you'll read through this thread and follow @peter lena recommendations that whining will be gone.

 

 

Indeed, thanks for the reference to the other thread. Very helpful. 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,495]

You have got this.

The short shaft in the bearing may have a snap ring on each side of the bearing. Some only have one on the outside.

Snap rings are punched when made so one side has rounded edges and the other has sharp edges.

In this case the shaft rings should be installed with the rounded edges facing the sides of the small bearing.

The sharp edges have a better chance of staying in the groove when under load.

 

[squonk 38,913]

Small bearing    Napa PP204RR6

[peter lena 8,063]

@Panther416-8   without question  , my experience with whining bearings is lubrication failure , personally like the rubber side seal removal access for grease change , bearing # PP 204 RR6  makes that easy , lucas x-tra hd , chassis grease is what you want , in there , 560 deg rated , anti sling , polyurea, is made for brutal stress and heat areas. don,t even chance what the original grease is , carefully remove seals , wipe out grease , aerosol brake cleaner flush , repack with lucas , while you are in the area , why not easily do the same grease change to your mule drive bearings ?  did that in mine. that entire pto lever belt drive set up , needs lubrication detail help , every related dragging , point  can be helped , been there . my decks spin up without screaming effort , go step by step ,and improve . also did my belt drive idler pulley , with the pathetic tiny bearing , you can make it better , pete    

[Panther416-8 341]

2 hours ago, gwest_ca said:

You have got this.

The short shaft in the bearing may have a snap ring on each side of the bearing. Some only have one on the outside.

Snap rings are punched when made so one side has rounded edges and the other has sharp edges.

In this case the shaft rings should be installed with the rounded edges facing the sides of the small bearing.

The sharp edges have a better chance of staying in the groove when under load.

 

Thanks Garry, especially the tip about the snap rings.

 

1 hour ago, squonk said:

Small bearing    Napa PP204RR6

Thanks for the Napa cross reference squonk

 

37 minutes ago, peter lena said:

@Panther416-8   without question  , my experience with whining bearings is lubrication failure , personally like the rubber side seal removal access for grease change , bearing # PP 204 RR6  makes that easy , lucas x-tra hd , chassis grease is what you want , in there , 560 deg rated , anti sling , polyurea, is made for brutal stress and heat areas. don,t even chance what the original grease is , carefully remove seals , wipe out grease , aerosol brake cleaner flush , repack with lucas , while you are in the area , why not easily do the same grease change to your mule drive bearings ?  did that in mine. that entire pto lever belt drive set up , needs lubrication detail help , every related dragging , point  can be helped , been there . my decks spin up without screaming effort , go step by step ,and improve . also did my belt drive idler pulley , with the pathetic tiny bearing , you can make it better , pete    

Pete, should I use the same Lucas 560 grease on the needle bearings?

[Heatingman 941]

1 hour ago, Panther416-8 said:

Thanks Garry, especially the tip about the snap rings.

 

Thanks for the Napa cross reference squonk

 

Pete, should I use the same Lucas 560 grease on the needle bearings?

Yes, same grease for all the bearings. 

[peter lena 8,063]

@Panther416-8  yes absolutely , just use a small amount on the needle , excess can sling to clutch face . had a number of related issues on my horses , that directed me to my cure , if interested , have an upgrade on the pto lever itself , starting point . don,t want to add to your hesitant  not in the book fix . pete 

[Panther416-8 341]

Thanks all. Picked up a HF shop press and replaced the small outer bearing. I had to go with the NAPA bearing with the metal seal as I needed to get it going again quickly for lawn duty.  I appreciate all the help from the wonderful members on this forum. It's great to have resources like this to keep these old machines running and pass down to future generations.