1985 K341S charge system questions

[MilanWH 26]

I recently bought a 1989 520hc with the beginnings of a K341S swap in progress. I got it fairly cheap because the person I bought it from couldn't figure out the wiring changes needed to get it to run. With the help of many on this forum, I got the beast to start and run, but I'm now tackling the charging system. The Kohler has 2 wires that have been cut coming out from behind the shrouds, dark yellow and light yellow. With the tractor running, one wire is showing 80 volts a/c, the other is showing 25 volts a/c. What I find hard to understand is that both wires show .7-1.4 ohms to ground. I would like to figure out how to get this thing to charge the battery, what regulator might work, and how to wire it up. any and all help would be greatly appreciated.

[Jeff-C175 7,195]

5 minutes ago, MilanWH said:

one wire is showing 80 volts a/c, the other is showing 25 volts a/c

 

With reference to ground?  What are they measuring between the two?

 

Those wires are the stator output, and I don't believe you should see ANY continuity to ground.  Others will possibly correct me on this.

 

 

 

 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,530]

Connect one test lead to each wire - What is the AC voltage then?

[MilanWH 26]

I connected my volt meter to ground, then put the positive lead on each wire individually. One had 80 volts a/c' the other had 25 volts a/c. Are you saying that with the engine running, I should check the voltage between the 2 wires, and not with none test lead attached to ground?

[Jeff-C175 7,195]

20 minutes ago, MilanWH said:

I connected my volt meter to ground, then put the positive lead on each wire individually. One had 80 volts a/c' the other had 25 volts a/c. Are you saying that with the engine running, I should check the voltage between the 2 wires, and not with none test lead attached to ground?

 

Yes, that is correct.

 

But... until someone confirms my belief that there should be NO continuity to ground from either wire... I'm thinking that there may be a problem with that stator or perhaps the wires coming out.

 

I just realized... I've got an engine on the bench right now.  I'll BRB after I check it... stand by...

 

OK, I'm back...  the K301 on my bench with the 15 A stator shows OPEN CIRCUIT from either wire to ground.  

 

If I measure from one wire to the other I get about a half Ohm which I expected.

 

Something is wrong there, the stator wires should NOT be grounded!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Jeff-C175

[MilanWH 26]

Ok, between the 2 wires coming out of the shroud, I get 50 volts a/c at around 2000 rpm. Will that tell me what regulator will work, and how to wire it up?

[Jeff-C175 7,195]

7 minutes ago, MilanWH said:

Ok, between the 2 wires coming out of the shroud, I get 50 volts a/c at around 2000 rpm. Will that tell me what regulator will work, and how to wire it up?

 

I would look at the regulators that were used on the C series tractors.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Voltage-Regulator-Gravely-Ariens-Tractor/dp/B07H3N77YJ

 

 

You'll need the connector also:  I think this is the right one, but CHECK TO BE SURE!  

 

https://wheelhorsepartsandmore.com/product/237429-stator-voltage-regulator/

 

The output from the stator goes to the two 'side by side' terminals and the output from the regulator goes to the terminal below them.

 

 

BUT...........  you need to determine why the stator is grounded first!  That will be a big problem when you go to hook up a regulator, you will probably fry it immediately.

 

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Jeff-C175

[Snoopy11 5,713]

7 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

you need to determine why the stator is grounded first!  That will be a big problem when you go to hook up a regulator, you will probably fry it immediately.

Excellent resource here that I found while researching for my Techy hh120...

 

http://statorproblems.com/15_how-to-test-a-stator.html

 

EDIT: Source states: "Set your multimeter to Ohms. Put the negative lead on the engine’s ground and the positive lead on each wires of the stator’s connector one by one. You shouldn’t get a reading at all. If you get a reading, even very small, on any wire, the stator is defective and must be changed."

 

Don

Edited September 5, 2022 by Snoopy11

[Jeff-C175 7,195]

10 minutes ago, Snoopy11 said:

Excellent resource here that I found while researching for my Techy hh120...

 

http://statorproblems.com/15_how-to-test-a-stator.html

 

Don

 

Keeping in mind that they are testing a THREE PHASE stator which is why they are saying:

 

 

Our stators are SINGLE PHASE and have only two wires.

 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Jeff-C175

[MilanWH 26]

Perfect, thank you guys so much. It surprises me that with the stator wires grounded that I still get 50 volts out of it. I'll start taking shrouds off to see if the wire insulation is rubbed through anywhere. On that regulator, does it matter which wire goes to which input terminal?

 

[Snoopy11 5,713]

4 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

Our stators are SINGLE PHASE and have only two wires.

Yeah, so ours would just be... 1-2... testing between the 2 AC leads...

 

That normally yields between .064-.096 from my understanding for a 2 wire stator...

 

EDIT: 'zee picture...

 

 

Don

Edited September 5, 2022 by Snoopy11

[Jeff-C175 7,195]

1 minute ago, MilanWH said:

On that regulator, does it matter which wire goes to which input terminal?

 

 

No, because it's AC voltage, polarity is irrelevant.

 

 

[MilanWH 26]

Jeff, Snoopy, thank you guys so much. Resistance between the 2 stator leads is correct, but they both show continuity to ground, so I may have to replace the stator as well as the regulator. It still is puzzling to me how the stator could put out 50 volts while grounded, but I'm still learning. thanks again everybody!

[Jeff-C175 7,195]

29 minutes ago, MilanWH said:

 It still is puzzling to me how the stator could put out 50 volts while grounded, 

 

As you said earlier, make sure that it's not just the wires coming from the stator that are worn through and grounding.  The stator itself MAY be OK.  It IS possible for the wiring on the stator assembly itself to develop a short to ground due to insulation failure of the windings, and it's not uncommon for that to happen.  So check carefully before replacing the whole stator.  You might only need a couple pieces of heat shrink tubing.

 

Let's see... how to explain this... 

 

As long as the stator winding is OK, you will get voltage out of it.

 

Being grounded doesn't really mean anything UNTIL you connect it to an electrical system that is properly grounded.

Because you don't have a 'complete circuit' without connecting it to the rest of the system.

Once you connect it to the rest of the system, then current will flow where it is not supposed to flow and create problems.

 

If you think about it like you might think about the AC in your house... the NEUTRAL wire IS grounded BY DESIGN at the service panel, and everything works fine... because the HOT is not ALSO grounded.

Once you ground the hot, sparks fly and breakers trip...  because you have completed the circuit.

 

So, as long as your stator is grounded at only one point (a fault) and there is no complete circuit connected to it, it will still produce voltage.

 

Does that help?

 

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Jeff-C175

[MilanWH 26]

Jeff, yes, makes sense, thanks for the explanation. I'm hoping that removing the shields will reveal the problem and that heat shrink will solve it. If not, I may try and find a used stator. I don't want to need a battery charger to use this tractor, and to be honest I'm enjoying the education! It's been fun getting to this stage. I'm still trying to decide if I want to keep the 520/341 tractor or the 416-8 that I've been using for the last few years. If I can't get it charging' the 416-8 will win out. Thank you again for all of your help, much appreciated! 

[953 nut 52,025]

@MilanWH when taking readings with a multimeter the meter should be as far as possible from the ignition coil of a running engine. The strong pulsating magnetic field of the coil can give erroneous readings and lead you toward a wrong diagnosis. 50 volts AC from a stator is very suspect if you put 50 volts AC into a rectifier it would deliver about 24 volts DC.

Your stator is basically a long continuous piece of copper wire that is wrapped around several segments of iron core that reside inside the flywheel. As the magnets rotate inside the flywheel they will induce magnetic fields in the cores and the subsequent collapse of those fields as the magnetic poles go by will induce an electrical current in the wires wound around the coil. This sequence continues as the flywheel rotates and an alternating current flow is developed at the ends of that long continuous wire.

With nothing attached to them and using a GOOD volt/ohm meter the resistance of that long continuous piece of wire should be about 0.1 to 0.2 ohms. Neither wire should show any continuity to ground. 

[MilanWH 26]

Ok gentleman, first, I think my meter is decent, its old, but it is a Fluke. I pulled the flywheel, and if I take the stator off of the block, the wires coming out of the stator are not grounded, if I reinstall the stator onto the block, the wires are grounded. Does this mean the stator is bad? It's a little confusing to me because the other end of the stator wire looks to be terminating in a ground lug on the stator body itself.I don't see how it couldn't go to ground the way its built. I'm starting, slowly but surely to realize just how little I know about this stuff!

[Jeff-C175 7,195]

34 minutes ago, MilanWH said:

other end of the stator wire looks to be terminating in a ground lug on the stator body itself

 

Picture is too small / fuzzy to make out what you're pointing at, but are you sure that's not just a cable clamp holding the wires?

 

If you can post a higher resolution and clearer pic, might be able to see something helpful.

 

Basically though, all that wiring should be isolated from ground.

 

That one looks pretty dirty!

 

[Jeff-C175 7,195]

41 minutes ago, MilanWH said:

a ground lug

 

Does it look like this?

 

 

That's a cable clamp and should not be contacting either of the wires.

I suppose it's possible that inside that clamp device the wiring could possible have shorted to the clamp.

 

By the way, I don't believe that is the 15 Amp stator.  If it were, it would have coils all the way around.

Since you've gone this far, it would be worth your while to replace it with the 15 Amp stator.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Jeff-C175

[MilanWH 26]

It is dirty, I plan on cleaning it all off with a soft brush. Is this picture good enough to see?

[MilanWH 26]

It looks like the end of the stator wiring, but I don't know.

[MilanWH 26]

One more try at better resolution.

[Jeff-C175 7,195]

7 minutes ago, MilanWH said:

better resolution.

 

Yes, third time's a charm!

 

I believe you are correct... it would appear to be grounded, but isn't that green piece PLASTIC?  What does the other side look like?  Is there a 'clearance' hole there for the terminal to keep it off ground?

 

Is the lug touching that rivet piece?  That could be the source of your ground fault:

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Jeff-C175

[Jeff-C175 7,195]

Also, check stuff like this:

 

Make sure those clips aren't through the insulation.  The top one looks well squashed.

 

Remember, 99% of troubleshooting is VISUAL!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Jeff-C175

[Jeff-C175 7,195]

14 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

By the way, I don't believe that is the 15 Amp stator.  If it were, it would have coils all the way around.

Since you've gone this far, it would be worth your while to replace it with the 15 Amp stator.

 

Keep this in mind, if you are running a 520 electrical system with that engine, you are going to want the bigger stator, so the investigation on that one could be a moot point.