Issue with fitting chains on C-series tractors

[Kevin Bowley 130]

I have a few c-series tractors, on my C-121, which I u for grading my long gravel drive, I had some great Goodyear turf tires, size 23x8x12, with heavy duty chains.  Those tires finally split wide open and the tube was riding on the ground. So, I purchased some new Trac-Gard N766 23x8.50x12 tires. I am unable to put the chains on because they rub on the left side brake drum? I also tried to put them on my C-161 and the same issue occurs.  So, what gives?  Do I remove the brake drum? wheel spacers? wimpy chains?  Has anyone else run into this issue? Here is My driveway

 

And my Heavy Duty chains

Edited June 27, 2022 by kbowley

[ebinmaine 63,308]

Verify the ACTUAL measurement of the new and old tires. 

 

You may need spacers.  

[roadapples 6,981]

I personally would add spacers. Probably 2"...

[OldWorkHorse 3,001]

I run 2 inch ford ranger spacers on all my horses. No issues with inner clearance. The chains do get close to my fenders on my 314-8 but not sure how a c series fender fits with chains vs 314. 

[Kevin Bowley 130]

I found some 1/2" spacers on eBay. I think that will give me enough room.  Two inch seems like it would be rough for the axle and hubs? Plus, where would I find lug nuts for those?  I just find it unusual that the clearance is very tight. I certainly see tons of them with chains.  I wish I could find those Goodyear Turf tires.  Anyone know of a source for those.  Here's a picture of the ones that failed and the new Trac-gard's I bought from Amazon for 57.00 each with 2 day free shipping. 

[8ntruck 6,417]

The thicker the spacer, the more you will increase the loads on the hub flanges and the bearings.  At the low speeds we operate at, it probably won't make that much difference -assuming you are on reasonably smooth ground.  If you operate over lots of lumps and bumps, those impact loads could start becoming an issue for the hub flanges and bearings.

 

If I was doing this, I would use the thinnest spacer to give the required clearance.

 

Another option would be to find wheels with smaller backspacing (distance between the inside rim flange and the mounting surface).

[Jeff-C175 7,195]

I wonder if your chains are the issue?

 

Is the ACTUAL width of the old tires greater than the new ones?  Did the side chains ride higher on the sidewalls?

 

Maybe the crosschains could be shortened by a few links?

[Snoopy11 5,713]

3 hours ago, kbowley said:

I am unable to put the chains on because they rub on the left side brake drum?

Wheel spacers... only option...

 

I have the same issue on one of my tractors... 'cept it hits the plow frame... gotta invest in spacers. There are a couple companies out there who will make them for you for considerable fee...

 

Don

[Snoopy11 5,713]

23 minutes ago, 8ntruck said:

If I was doing this, I would use the thinnest spacer to give the required clearance.

 

Another option would be to find wheels with smaller backspacing

Some custom spacers I have seen/considered bolt onto the hub, and provide new studs to bolt onto...

 

What are your thoughts...?

 

Some'fin 'ike 'is...

 

 

Don

[8ntruck 6,417]

 those would work, but you are still moving the load center of the wheel away from the bearing, which increases the load on the bearing by some amount - acts like a longer handle on a wrench.  

 

Example  (very rough calculations)- I weigh about 225 pounds.  One back wheel of my 14-8 is probably holding up 150 pounds of tractor. 150 pounds of tractor plus 112 pounds of me applied 3" from the outer axle bearing at stock wheel spacing , applies a bending moment at the bearing of about 495 inch pounds.  Add a 2" spacer, and the bending moment increases to 825 inch pounds.  That is actually the bending load of the axle at the bearing, but the radial load the bearing sees would increase at a similar proportion.

 

Since the wheel spacer is not piloted on the axle, there will be a change in the bending load that the hub flange sees.  This depends on where the hub flange is in relation to the center of the tire.  If the center of the tire is in board of the hub flange, moving the tire out will decrease the bending load on the hub flange until the center of the tire moves outboard of the hub flange.  At that point, the bending load on the hub flange changes sign and will increase as the tire is moved further out.

 

Make sense?  I'm going to guess that the Wheel Horse parts have enough beef in them that moving things around a few inches will not cause immediate damage under 'normal reasonable use'.  Under extreme use like pulling?  Well, things breaking from time to time is expected.

[JoeM 7,696]

Some of the C machines came with deeper back spacing on the rims. That would move the tire closer to the brake.

Need to compare where the disc is located relative to the edge of the rim. 

The rims with the most clearance are about a 1/2"

You can also put straight edge from back of rim to where the hub bolts on to see what the true backspace 1 1/2 will give most clearance.

That rim looks like one that is deeper. 

Rim with the minimal back space.

Edited June 28, 2022 by JoeM

[Thor27 722]

2 hours ago, Snoopy11 said:

Some custom spacers I have seen/considered bolt onto the hub, and provide new studs to bolt onto...

 

What are your thoughts...?

 

Some'fin 'ike 'is...

 

 

Don

Don, the thing to watch for is those are usually a m12 stud and may require you to clearance a bit on the lug holes of your wheel.

[ebinmaine 63,308]

2 hours ago, 8ntruck said:

Make sense?  I'm going to guess that the WHEEL HORSE PARTS HAVE ENOUGH BEEF in them that moving things around a few inches will not cause immediate damage under 'normal reasonable use'.  Under extreme use like pulling?  Well, things breaking from time to time is expected

 

It should be noted first that I don't mind fixing my "learning mistakes"...

That said,

I've had 2" spacers for years. 

I've also pulled some loads of wood and sand well over a thousand pounds. 

 

No issues. 

 

BEEFY!!

[Kevin Bowley 130]

3 hours ago, Jeff-C175 said:

I wonder if your chains are the issue?

 

Is the ACTUAL width of the old tires greater than the new ones?  Did the side chains ride higher on the sidewalls?

 

Maybe the crosschains could be shortened by a few links?

The old tires were 23×8.00x12 and the new ones are 23x8.50x12 so 1/2" wider which brings the tire just 1/4" closer so the chains just barely rub as I rotate the tire. I tried moving them both lower and higher on the inside but no go. I am almost sure that a 1/2" inch spacer will be plenty because they just barely hit.  Also, I have enough length with the current lug nuts. I just found it's strange that Wheel Horse didn't configure it to have enough clearance for chains. But there are a few things that make me question what the engineering team was smoking at the time 😕 

[Kevin Bowley 130]

3 hours ago, Snoopy11 said:

Some custom spacers I have seen/considered bolt onto the hub, and provide new studs to bolt onto...

 

What are your thoughts...?

 

Some'fin 'ike 'is...

 

 

Don

I found several of those types but I didn't find any with the correct bolt spacing and diameter. The only ones I found were for automobiles. Also have concerns about the loading of the hubs. Two inches is longer than the distance the hubs ride on the axles, or very close to it. I use a heavy box blade and pull an eight foot x 16 inch I-beam that weighs 400+ pounds to grade the driveway and that pulls some hard, the ropes are like guitar strings when she gets some dirt build up in front of it...not very much steering left in the poor ' ol girl.  Surprised that the tranny hasn't gone kabang but she probably doesn't have enough power to hurt that Sunstrand.

[Jeff-C175 7,195]

24 minutes ago, kbowley said:

23x8.50x12

 

Which is what I'm running on both my C-125 and C-175 and there is no issue with chain clearance on either machine.  The side chains are no more than 2" down on the side wall of the tires.  (Carlisle Turf Masters on one, and Turf Savers on the other)

 

I understand it's a different machine... but looking at your pics of the tires with chains on them it really looks to me as if the cross chains are too long and the side chain is way low on the side wall, almost to the wheel weights, and probably the same on the inside.

 

 

[JoeM 7,696]

5 hours ago, Jeff-C175 said:

looking at your pics of the tires with chains on them it really looks to me as if the cross chains are too long

  Probably for 10.50 tires they do come down and look like they touch the weights?

 

6 hours ago, kbowley said:

I just found it's strange that Wheel Horse didn't configure it to have enough clearance for chain

I figured they did, but they had to satisfy a another issue with small decks having to clear the deck gauge wheels at the tires when raised. Remember this is the era of smaller decks and just starting to transition to the wider stuff. Horse Power was lower, decks smaller, and tires were narrow too.

And who knows what all gets switched around over the years. 

[oldlineman 1,450]

yes I believe your chains are for a wider tire as others have said.

[ebinmaine 63,308]

6 hours ago, kbowley said:

found several of those types but I didn't find any with the correct bolt spacing and diameter. The only ones I found were for AUTOMOBILES

The ones for automobiles and small trucks / SUVs are what you use. I have a list of things I purchase when I install spacers. If you'd like I can PM it to you.

 

[ebinmaine 63,308]

8 hours ago, Thor27 said:

Don, the thing to watch for is those are usually a M12 STUD and may require you to clearance a bit on the lug holes of your wheel.

M12 will usually fit okay. It's m13 it's a problem.

 

I've bought several sets of spacers and all of them have had half inch diameter studs. I've had to "clean out"  the holes on the Wheel Horse wheels just a skosh.

 

I pull some very very heavy weights but it's important to remember these are not highway vehicles.  Your maximum speed is 6 or 7 mph.  

 

 

14 minutes ago, oldlineman said:

yes I believe your chains are for a wider tire as others have said.

Absolutely agree with that.

Later on today I can get you the differences. Chains for an 8, 8.5 tire should be around 11, 12 inch wide. I have several sets of chains for 10.5 tires and I think they are 14 inch across.  

 

Judging by the picture in the first post I'm going to go ahead and make the call that those are NOT the correct chains for those tires.

[Kevin Bowley 130]

12 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

Verify the ACTUAL measurement of the new and old tires. 

 

You may need spacers.  

 

I measured the tires' actual width; the old Goodyear's measured roughly 7.8 inches across the tread, and the new ones are 8.50 on the money. Here are the spacers I found on eBay, and I think I will get them. I am very confident that they will give me enough space. I bought those chains from TireChains.com. I also purchased the Heavy-duty V-bar chains for my 522-XI, my main plow tractor in the winter, and those babies have some traction, but they are expensive. Worth every penny when it takes me 4-5 hours of plowing with the big D-Series 56" blade on it (plus Ya got to love that power steering). Here are the chains I purchased for the 522XI. These are the ones that I got for the C-121. I bought those back around 2010 and wished I had purchased the V-Bars because those babies have some serious traction, even on glare ice. Anyway, I agree they are too wide for the tires, but when I purchased them, they listed for sizes 23x8.50, 9.50, and 10.50. Now they have more precise sizing. Comparing these to the typical eBay "peerless" cheapies, the links are at least twice as heavy. The links appear to be about 1/4" steel. Awesome chains that, even after 15 yrs. of use, still shine like new with virtually zero wear. 

 Regarding pulling 20 links apart to shorten, that would be a task considering how difficult they are to bend, plus it would limit their flexibility to use on, say, my 520 with the 10.50 width tires. However, it would likely work well, but I would purchase new chains before taking that task on.

[Pullstart 59,847]

51 minutes ago, kbowley said:

it takes me 4-5 hours of plowing with the big D-Series 56" blade on it

Maybe it’s just me, but at 4+ hours, I’d be looking at a plow truck. I can’t imagine they are rare in your area?

[ebinmaine 63,308]

23 minutes ago, Pullstart said:

Maybe it’s just me, but at 4+ hours, I’d be looking at a plow truck. I can’t imagine they are rare in your area?

 

There are multiple reasons a tractor would win if I was searching for a vehicle to move snow.

 

Here in Maine a plow truck that barely runs and drives and is falling apart will fetch $2,500 on its worst day. A decent truck in usable shape is worth $4,000 to $6,000 and I don't mean one that you can run on the road....

 

I'd rather spend $1,000 or even $2,000 on a nice old Wheelhorse that will run forever and ever and ever with minor maintenance.  

That too, maintenance, is another big factor in favor of a tractor.

Most of the horses have air-cooled engines which are far easier and less expensive to repair and maintain.

I can remove rebuild and replace an old Kohler carburetor in a couple hours but trucks have had complicated computer systems for which I don't have the tools to repair, for decades now.

 

Another huge consideration is turning radius.

You can whip a C series or even one of the larger tractors around in a circle that's about half the size of even the smallest trucks.

 

I can see where warmth and bodily comfort would be a concern for most people. Not so much for me. I have plenty of clothes, nice warm boots, hand and foot warmers. If I get too cold I go inside.

 

[Pullstart 59,847]

All good points.  Maybe I should start importing plow trucks to Maine!

[ebinmaine 63,308]

1 minute ago, Pullstart said:

All good points.  Maybe I should start importing plow trucks to Maine!

There's a fair chance you'd make good money.

You can't even get medium duty commercial trucks around here because they all get imported South.