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DarylJ

B-80 dead ignition…bypass ammeter okay?

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DarylJ

B-80 4 speed has a dead ignition system.  Battery is fine.  Turn key on…nothing happens.  The ammeter is also stone dead.  Not a wiggle, just as if there was no battery present at all when the ignition is switched on.  Before beginning tests by bypassing components in the ignition system to isolate anything faulty, are there any of them that cannot be safely bypassed?  For example, can the ammeter by bypassed to determine whether or not it is faulty?  Or, does it need to be part of the circuit when trying to determine what is causing the whole system to be non-functional?  I am assuming it is safe to bypass it, but I’ve made incorrect assumptions before, so maybe those here with more knowledge than I have can weigh in on this.  Does the starter solenoid exhibit any advance symptoms prior to dying altogether?  I should mention that I did do a trial ignition switch replacement, but the replacement did nothing to resolve the issue.  That leaves the solenoid, the ammeter, the safety switches, or bare/broken/disconnected wires, or corroded connections. Before proceeding further, just wanting to know whether anything can be damaged by bypassing.  Thanks for any advice.

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Gregor

You can by-pass the ammeter without doing any harm. In fact, you can by-pass everything for the short term. Use one side of your jumper cables to go from battery + to post on starter, just be certain trans is in neutral. For the ignition system, you can clip a jumper wire from Battery +, to coil +, and see if you have spark. If you get it to spin over, and you get spark, it's time to backtrack, and see where the problem lies.

 

 "That leaves the solenoid, the ammeter, the safety switches,....................."

Looking at the wiring diagram, I don't believe the solenoid, or safety switches have anything to do with the ignition circuit, The ignition circuit and start circuit are COMPLETELY seperate.

Click on the file below to open.

With the key in the on position, using a volt meter, check for 12V DC at coil +.

Edited by Gregor
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Gregor

To me, this drawing in the wiring diagram, is a bit convoluted and confusing. Ignore the black lines going around each terminal. I guess they were trying to depict the plastic plug going into the back of the switch.

982913760_ignswitch.png.a56b67a8bf6e0393812e765792701de1.png

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ebinmaine

Did you check the new switch to confirm the correct terminals?

It's very easy to get the wrong switch. 

 

To bypass ammeter just remove one terminal from it and put it one the other terminal. 

 

Check PTO switch carefully. That's a popular wear out item. 

 

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953 nut

You can remove the two wires from the Amp meter and bolt them together safely. Here is a stepp by step way to test all components of the starter circuit.

Why won’t my starter turn over from the key switch?

Lets take a logical step by step inspection of your starter problem.

Is your PTO in the ON position, a wheel horse will not start with the PTO on.

Have you had the battery load tested at an auto parts store?

Have you cleaned and tightened all electrical connections including grounds?

Are all fuses good and fuse holders cleaned?

If these have all been done, we can check components of the starting system as follows; don’t skip a step or you may miss the problem.

Be sure the transmission is in neutral and the parking brake is set.

Take a pair of automotive jumper cables and connect the black cable to your battery  "-" and a good clean spot on the engine. Now connect the other cable to the large post on the starter and touch the other end to the battery "+" terminal, does the starter turn over? If the starter turns over the battery and starter are good. If it didn't turn over try the same steps with the battery in your car/truck, if that cures the problem then the "good" battery wasn't so good.

Presuming the starter turned over move the jumper wire from the starter post to the other end of the wire going to the starter which is one of the large posts on the solenoid. If the starter turns over when the battery is touched by the jumper as before then that cable is good, if not you have found your problem.

Presuming the starter turned over move that jumper to the other terminal of the solenoid, connect the other end to the battery and use a small piece of wire to temporarily connect the battery "+" terminal to the small terminal on the solenoid, this should cause the solenoid to close and the starter to turn over. If not, the solenoid is probably the problem.

If this was successful remove the large jumper cable and use the small jumper wire to the small terminal of the solenoid, the solenoid should close and the starter turn over. If not the cable to the battery is the problem.

Presuming all of these have been successful remove the black jumper wire and repeat the small jumper to small terminal, if the starter turns over the ground is good.

If all of these components test good then remove your ignition switch, be sure the transmission is in neutral, parking brake on, clutch depressed and PTO off. Use a small jumper to connect the terminals that were connected to the “B” and “S” terminals of the ignition switch. If the starter turns over then the PTO switch and other safety switches are operating properly and your ignition switch may be bad.

@BOB ELLISON has a couple of drawings of a typical "B" or "C" series wiring diagrams. The first one is as is from the factory and will help you follow the flow path. The second one is with a Volt meter in place of the Amp meter which I think is a better way to go.

Let us know how you are doing.

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gwest_ca

I guess they were trying to depict the plastic plug going into the back of the switch

 

That is exactly why the connector was added. One can probe the back of the switch and know which wire is what using the unique shape of the connector. Wires are usually covered with dust and/or faded in color making identification impossible.

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DarylJ

Thanks much to everyone for weighing in with suggestions.  I had a new battery on hand to substitute for the old one.  Also a second new battery.  ignition was dead with both. The original battery has been fine, too, until when the system went dead totally. Rule out bad battery.  

 

Also had an OEM new switch on hand for whenever the need for it would arise.  Installed it, but no change.  Still dead system.  For now am ruling out a bad switch.  

 

Next is to test the solenoid and battery cables/connections.  If the solenoid tests bad, then I know they don’t give any advance notice by showing any suspect symptoms, as it gave none at all.  Will report back on that later.  

 

If solenoid tests okay, next is the ammeter.  I will bypass now that I know it is certainly okay to do. As it hasn’t been registering much of anything for quite some time, only a little twitch when engine is running, it has been on my radar for awhile, but if it totally craps out, I am now aware whether this can shut the system down or not.  If an ammeter failure can do this, then I will not be surprised to find it as being the culprit.  

 

The seat safety switch has been bypassed forever, so that’s out of the running.  This leaves the clutch pedal switch and the PTO switch. I am aware of how the PTO switch functions, and it was not in the engaged position, so that part is ruled out.  Not to say the switch isn’t bad, but it’s not operator oversight by having it in the engaged position when attempting to start.  

 

As for bare wires in the harness causing it to short to ground….I have already inspected it twice, including tugging and sliding it in locations where it could ground out.  Doing so gave no indication on the ammeter that there may be a bare wire anywhere.  If everything else checks out okay, then I will revisit the wiring again as a last resort.  

 

So, it certainly could be any one of several possibilities.  Maybe more than one. Next is to continue ticking them off until one can’t be.  

 

Thanks again to all for the excellent suggestions and reminders.

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ebinmaine

Sounds like you got your ducks in a row fairly well. Good to hear.

 

Run your diagnostics however you understand the way to do them the best but if I was you I would immediately bypass that ammeter before doing anything else.

 

Forgive me if this hass already come up but have we confirmed that the grounds are good? Direct current system with a bad ground is a NO current system...

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DarylJ

Yep, grounds were first thing I checked actually.  Heading out now to do the remainder of checks.  The ammeter will be first on the checklist.  Bypass and see what happens…

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Gregor

Are you testing the IGNITION system, (spark to the spark plug), or STARTING system, power to crank the starter? Or both?

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BOB ELLISON

I'm betting on the amp gage being bad  and why you ask. Because I had the same problem a few days ago. Second bet is brake or pto switch.

Edited by BOB ELLISON
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DarylJ

Trying to test both ignition and start systems, but this afternoon focused on the start system.  But….I am now in the 7th level of wiring purgatory with this beast.  Turns out that a PO had been in there and disregarded the rules of maintaining correct wire colors.  So that makes it interesting right from the start. When attempting to trace everything according to the diagram, the PO again worked some sort of magic by re-routing the red wire from the solenoid that should have gone to the ammeter to the light switch instead!  This dead-ended as the tractor has no lights, front or rear.  Cool.  Next, the wires going into the switch block are mostly wrong. The only wire that is correct is the red one.  Orange, black, green go to the wrong terminals.  Tomorrow I will descend from purgatory straight to wiring hell.  New wires will be run of the correct color, then testing can resume again. 

 

The better news is:  by doing some jumpering, was able to determine the solenoid is okay, the starter is okay, the clutch pedal switch is okay, and the switch is okay.  I suspect the PTO switch is okay as well, but that ammeter, being it has been bypassed in the past, is definitely suspect.  I did a third inspection of existing wiring to check for bare or broken wires.  None found, even though they are incorrectly colored and running every which way.  

 

So, here’s the punch line to this whole thing:  Despite the hornet’s nest of wiring, it actually functioned prior to two days ago!!!  The evil genius who performed some black magic on this tractor actually made it run in his own diabolical way. Not everything likely was functional, but it started and ran fine.  

 

Tomorrow is a new day.  I will have a new outlook on this thing and get it sorted out eventually.  I have no replacement ammeter should it be needed, but despite that should be able to get it back running once everything is wired back to original. 

 

Pulling wires out of 5 wire receptacle blocks may be a challenge.  If I recall from past similar encounters with them, they don’t give up the wire ends inserted into them without a fight.  Sometimes the receptacle blocks break, too.  It’s always something unplanned for.

 

Will update this thread once I’m back out of wiring hell again.

 

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Gregor
13 minutes ago, DarylJ said:

Pulling wires out of 5 wire receptacle blocks may be a challenge.

They will come out quite easily if you stick a very small flat1197383162_littletab.png.071986d04f476033bc5a8dc3b32b6fc3.png screw driver into the top of each terminal, and push down the little tab that holds them in. That being said, if you don't have new ones, with the proper tools to put back in, why take them out?

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DarylJ

Not sure how many will need to be replaced, but surely the wires with colors other than correct.  I may end up clipping them a couple inches from the block, then using splice connectors to connect wires of the correct color headed to the correct locations.  For future reference, having the correct wiring in place will help whomever is looking at it.

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Gregor
4 minutes ago, DarylJ said:

then using splice connectors to connect wires

Not a big fan of those, but a guys gotta do what a guys gotta do, As long as he does it correctly.

 

You can also use simple 1/4" insulated, female spade terminal ends, push them right on the switch, and forget about the plastic block altogether, until you get the proper ends and wire crimper.

Edited by Gregor

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BOB ELLISON

I just replaced all the wires on my c160 which is the same as the B80. The 5 wire switch plug is easy to remove the wires. Its just knowing what to use to release the wires. I made the tool out of a piece of galvanized steel. Just cut it so it fits in the slot  . I bent it up just a little at the tip and insert it and push and the wire will slide out. All that holds the wire in is a little tab as in the last picture. Piece of cake. If for some reason it refuses to come out just bend the tip of the tool up a little.

The 5 wire switch plug can also be used for the regular/rectifier if you have a 3 wire one up two below regular 

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BOB ELLISON

If you do the right way you'll probably never have to do it again. I did mine last week. But I really like the electrical part . Don't rush and double check your work.

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DarylJ

Bob, very nice job!  Where did you purchase the correct clips for the wire ends?

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953 nut

Go to any good auto parts store like NAPA and ask for Delphi Packard 56 series terminals.

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BOB ELLISON

Customconnectorkits.com

Delphi 56

02984807-L - Delphi 56 Series Female Terminal for 12 AWG, Loose Piece $ .59 

 

02973422
Delphi 56 Series Black 5 Way Female Connector. $ .99

shipping was more then the cost but was less then stores.

Edited by BOB ELLISON
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DarylJ

Thanks!  Will pick a bunch in the morning!

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Gregor

Or Amazon

 

1848953091_Screenshot2021-10-13at01-24-50Baomain14inch(63mm)FemaleSpadeQuickSpliceCrimpTerminalsCrimpConnectorNonIn....png.6fb29d1ed2d29799bd86152726d0d6c6.png

 

 

Edited by Gregor

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Gregor

To properly crimp the wires to these connectors, you will need an "Open Barrel" crimping tool. Your auto parts store should have that also. $10 - $20.

 

1002530962_openbarrel2.png.e67261a2019786c0e550bfa631a03c94.png

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Gregor
10 hours ago, DarylJ said:

Not sure how many will need to be replaced, but surely the wires with colors other than correct.

14 ga. wire is recommended, with an in line fuse in every low amperage circuit. I'm a big fan of fuses.

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DarylJ

Good tip Gregor. Thanks.  At this point, the only fuse in the system is on the lighting circuit.  Will add fuse holders to the list as well.  I have lots of #12 wire on hand in red, green, black, white, and yellow for a good long time. The Delphi connectors ordered last night were for #12 wire as well, so will likely go that route, even tho it’s not quite as easy to work with and bulkier than #14.  

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